The Bloody Piece of Apron Redux

[Archaic]

ALERT! & Medicinal Uses of Vinegar In The LVP

Thanks, guys. There sure have been a lot of terrific contributions to this thread!

>> Before proceeding any further, I would like to take a moment to propose a new
International Sign Language Casebook Smilie Alert For "DELICATE SUBJECT MATTER": >> < <

(I was going to call it the "Sensitive Man Alert", but that would be sexist.)


So far this Alert has no 'Higher Alert' levels, just the basic everyday terror level,
so whenever you see the dread >> << advance at your own peril...


OK, ladies, now that all the men have left, I just want to say that this thread gone in some rather unusual directions and raised some very diverse & obscure subject matter, but I think that's a good thing! I have a little information regarding the medicinal use of Vinegar that might be of interest. I've read through a large number of late 19th C. medical books and journals over the last few years, and what I recall seeing vinegar recommended for was the treatment of venereal infections; principally Gonorrhea. (That's such a loathsome word, I don't even like to type it.) Venereal infections were sadly common among all classes of people. There were no antibiotics yet and no treatments were really effective, but vinegar rinses were prescribed for both men and women.

I don't recall vinegar being discussed as any kind of ‘contraceptive aid’, but I do remember seeing diluted vinegar advised for postpartum and post-menstrual feminine hygiene. Highly diluted vinegar is still used for that today. Apple Cider Vinegar is an old-time "tonic" and health aid with a large variety of uses, though I rather doubt it was an effective spermicide. But there were few alternatives, so I suppose it was better than nothing. Of course, it's entirely possible that even though the medical professionals were prescribing vinegar sponge-baths for basic hygiene and the treatment of venereal infections, great masses of people could have been relying on the purported efficacy of vinegar as a 'home remedy' spermicide.

If any doctors believed vinegar really was effective as a contraceptive aid, I'm not entirely sure they'd have been comfortable sharing that information other than privately. The Victorian Era medical journals were circulated mostly among professionals, but often available at libraries, etc. They are remarkably matter-of-fact and graphic about most subjects, sometimes startling so, but when it comes to sexual matters they suddenly become very circumspect, making oblique references and employing euphemisms. When a more sexually explicit article was published- for instance one describing the grotesque nature of the Ripper murders and speculating as to the sexual behaviors indulged in by the perpetrator- there was often a flurry of editorials written by other doctors complaining about the discussion of “morally repugnant and disgusting matters”.

Back to vinegar. I've heard of street prostitutes using Coca-Cola douches in the 20th C., and I wouldn't be surprised if Coke is a more toxic spermicide than vinegar! Just out of curiosity I looked up "vinegar spermicide", and was surprised to discover that many people today are using vinegar "to increase their chances of conceiving a girl” (??) They're apparently referring to a now-questioned theory of sex-selection called the ‘Shettles Method’. It’s supposed to help parents choose the sex of the child they wish to conceive. I had never heard of it before, but someone on the internet offered this helpful explanation of the complex biological processes involved: “Y-sperm don’t like vinegar, it freezes their tails off!” ...Umm, I have no idea if that factoid is true or not, but that particular individual's spelling didn't inspire confidence.

Guess it just goes to show that it's always been hard to tell the difference between good Medicine, genuine Folk Remedies, Old Wives' Tales, and Urban Myths.

Best regards,
Archaic

[mariab]

Hi Jane,
great that your book is almost done! I'll most certainly purchase it (perhaps electronically?). I won't have much time for “meaty“ posts as next either, as I'm (finally) back to completing a French article due for publication which requires quite a bit of work, there are tons of things missing, including all the (massive) results from my research in Paris since July. I'm still trying to get into the (for the much part, already forgotten!) details, and I was even wrong about its length. Somehow I remembered it to be already over 20 p., but it's just about 15 p.. It's funny how memory (and ego?) play tricks on one...
Anyway, good luck and much fun with the rest of your manuscript.

[Jane Coram]

Thanks Archaic,

I might well be contacting you shortly about about the book, and I'd like to use some of the information in it. I'll put a little flower next to your name in the acknowledgments. Lol.

Much love

Janie

xxxx

[Archaic]

Hi Janie; thank you. I'll be very happy to assist you in any way I can.

I have oodles of detailed LVP-related information stored in countless computer files, not to mention all the arcane knowledge that perpetually clogs my poor little brain

Just let me know what kind of stuff you're after. We'll have fun!

Cheers, Archaic

[Errata]

[/COLOR] [COLOR="DarkOrchid"]
I don't recall vinegar being discussed as any kind of ‘contraceptive aid’, but I do remember seeing diluted vinegar advised for postpartum and post-menstrual feminine hygiene. Highly diluted vinegar is still used for that today.

Ok. Gynecologist's kid coming online.
never never never use any store bought or homemade err.... rinses. It's not so much that it's harmful, although some of them are highly toxic (in the 50s they used Lysol. I say no more.) But that any acidity or salinity invariably kills the bacteria who's sole job it is to prevent yeast infections.

but when it comes to sexual matters they suddenly become very circumspect, making oblique references and employing euphemisms. When a more sexually explicit article was published- for instance one describing the grotesque nature of the Ripper murders and speculating as to the sexual behaviors indulged in by the perpetrator- there was often a flurry of editorials written by other doctors complaining about the discussion of “morally repugnant and disgusting matters”.

While books like Fanny Hill, the Kama Sutra, Japanese Pillow Books, etc. were considered highly cultured and were prized, any book or pamphlet discussing contraception or birth control was considered obscene, and the possession of such materials was prosecuted. Contraception was also illegal. Thus the odd advertisements that do not say "birth control" anywhere in the ad.

Back to vinegar. I've heard of street prostitutes using Coca-Cola douches in the 20th C., and I wouldn't be surprised if Coke is a more toxic spermicide than vinegar!

It is. It's also far more likely to get you pregnant that to keep you from getting pregnant. The acidity needs some time to work, and in the meantime you just blasted the sperm with a bubbly wave that that speeds them on their way.

“Y-sperm don’t like vinegar, it freezes their tails off!” ...Umm, I have no idea if that factoid is true or not, but that particular individual's spelling didn't inspire confidence.

Hahaha. yeah that claim is crap.

By the way, the women we are talking about, the same class as the victims couldn't afford birth control, and would not have gotten the cooperation of their clients for any other kind of birth control. They were relying solely on luck.

[mariab]

100% correct, Errata. Particularly this part from your post deserves to be repeated, for emphasis:
Quote Errata:
Never never never use any store bought or homemade err.... rinses. It's not so much that it's harmful. But that any acidity or salinity invariably kills the bacteria who's sole job it is to prevent infections.

Contraception was illegal? I know it was kept under the rug, but ILLEGAL, like abortion? I can only say, I'm sooo deeply grateful for having been born after 1970. For chrissake.

Quote Errata:
By the way, the women we are talking about, the same class as the victims couldn't afford birth control, and would not have gotten the cooperation of their clients for any other kind of birth control. They were relying solely on luck.
Mmm, not so sure about this, Errata. I've read about the French (who might have been more evolved than the English) widely using contraception since the 17th century. Also, I can imagine that an inserted sponge might have provided a certain amount of protection (to a certain degree), without the male partners even noticing. In fact, I kinda recall having read about a contraceptive sponge (obviously, sprayed with spermicide) having existed in France in the 1980s or whenever it was.

[protohistorian]

It does not get said nearly enough, thank you ladies. You have taken a thread that was doomed to inane circular argumentation and filled it with useful contextual information that helps us understand the victims better. You have done it with wit and charm and complete civility and I commend you, It is a pleasure to watch happening! Dave

[Archaic]

Unidentified Black Rubber Object...

Hi Errata. Yes, contraception was illegal in the Victorian era. The doctors talked endlessly about Syphilis and other horrible infections but were very careful not to mention the forbidden subject of contraception. Oh, those poor women... Medical professionals even considered pregnancy to be a woman's "natural state", and if she wasn't pregnant- or even worse, was menstruating- she was considered to be "prone to derangement". (Yeah, right.)

I once was rummaging through a box of miscellaneous junk from an old five & dime type drug-store (a "chemist's" for you Brits), and I came across an ancient-looking black rubber thing. I couldn't figure out what the heck it was. It was sort of a rounded cup-shape, open at the top, quite thick & heavy-duty. It resembled the rubber end of an old bicycle horn, but with a wide opening instead of a narrow neck. It was unbelievably decrepit-looking because the rubber was a good 100 years old and all dried out, and it smelled funky as very old rubber usually does. We passed it around, joking and trying to guess what it was. We were stumped. A little while later I found the original little box it had come in, and was horrified to discover that it was a "womb supporter"!! Oh my God, I couldn't drop the thing fast enough.

It was old store-stock that had never been sold (called "new old-stock" in the antiques biz), so it was unused and had simply fallen out of its battered little cardboard box, but nobody wanted to be the one to touch it! I finally forced myself to picked it up and put it back in the box. I did a little research, and found that it was a device for women who had given birth to so many children that their wombs had collapsed!! The thick rubber cup was to hold the womb in! I never forgot that. The suffering of women throughout history staggers the mind.

Errata, it's funny that you mentioned the old Lysol ads, because I have some and was intending to post a couple. I'll dig them out & put them up.

Hello Dave, I just saw your post. Thank you so much for saying that, I'm sure all of us gals appreciate it very much. Glad you find the more obscure stuff interesting too. How did you like the Alert? I can see you're one of the brave ones.

Best regards,
Archaic

[Archaic]

Forget &quot;Fresh as a Daisy&quot;... Try &quot;Lysol Fresh&quot;

Here are a couple of vintage Lysol ads. These ads were in all kinds of ladies' magazines from the 1920's into the 1950's.
The first time I saw one I was absolutely stunned. I showed it to my boyfriend and he was horrified too.

...Well, Casebookers, I thinks it's a safe bet that our grandmothers and great-grandmothers didn't try this, as I doubt we would be here now.

Cheers,
Archaic

PS: The bottom ad is from 1928, so it's more discreet, but promises that "explicit" instructions come with the product.

[protohistorian]

The "after" pictures with the happy smile just kill me! I could see a male equivalent of 'scrotum tar" with some senior with the proverbial "12 lbs" balls covered in black syrup and a cheesy I just won the lotto grin. I suspect the idea of truth in advertising is a fictional 'wouldn't it be great if' thing and not so much a reality now or in the past. Dave

[Archaic]

Hi Dave. Can you believe that these ads lasted through the 1950's?

I find the early Lysol ads especially fascinating because they are more subtle. By the 1930's they were hair-raising!

It's interesting to watch the development of these ads over time because you can see how product-makers and advertisers relentlessly brain-washed people into believing that their natural state was somehow wrong, unhealthy, or offensive so they could be turned into faithful consumers.

It still works today.

Best regards,
Archaic

[protohistorian]

Archaic, I wish I could feign surprise. Anything that can be monetized is monetized. The idea of systemic values in capitalist society is laughable. If someone can even dream of some balderdash reason you should give him money or buy his product, it is fair game. I am currently making plutonium necklaces of Christ that "glow" when you love him. Did you want to pre order? Dave

[Archaic]

I am currently making plutonium necklaces of Christ that "glow" when you love him. Did you want to pre order? Dave

Oooh, that would look AWESOME with my Mood Ring!

You're sure to make a killing with that idea, Dave.

-Archaic

[Errata]

Mmm, not so sure about this, Errata. I've read about the French (who might have been more evolved than the English) widely using contraception since the 17th century. Also, I can imagine that an inserted sponge might have provided a certain amount of protection (to a certain degree), without the male partners even noticing. In fact, I kinda recall having read about a contraceptive sponge (obviously, sprayed with spermicide) having existed in France in the 1980s or whenever it was.

The means existed. But look at the old ad of Archaic's for sponges. 12p for half a dozen I think. The early diaphragm type things were also expensive. These women were out half the night to earn the money for a drink and a doss. And there is no way they were going to get their customers to use condoms. The only free form of contraception was for the man to pull out, but again, there is no way a paying customer is going to do that. It's not so much about what's available, as much is what is available to them.

You know thinking about it, I'm not sure birth control was legal in the US until the forties. I have to check that.

[mariab]

Hi Errata,
there's an ad of Archaic's about a Victorian sponge? Where?!?
12p for half a dozen sounds expensive, but I'm sure that Victorian “unfortunates“ might be able to find one single (natural) sponge (maybe at the docks?;-)) and re-use it again and again. If I were in their shoes, I'd go dive and retrieve a sponge myself, but then again, Victorian women (and men) for the most part didn't know how to swim.
(With apologies for the silly joke.)