Kate's fire engine performance

[kensei]

It's recorded that Kate Eddowes drunkenly collapsed in the street after giving a humorous imitation of a fire engine to an amused crowd, but I've never seen a more detailed description of this performance. Can anyone suggest how one might have imitated a Victorian fire engine, or describe just what such a device was like in that age before motor vehicles? I imagine some large piece of water-spraying equipment pulled by horses, probably with a loud clanging bell before the invention of the siren.

And this just kind of randomly crosses my mind- anyone for the theory that after failing to find her daughter, Kate encountered an off-duty fire crew somewhere that was passing a bottle around and asked them if any of them were looking for a good time? She somehow ended up drunk with fire engines on her mind.

[Mike Covell]

Perhaps this page might be of some help Kensei,

http://history.powys.org.uk/school1/hay/firefly.shtml

The fire engines shown date from 1895 and 1901 so just a little later, but give some idea to the style.

[kensei]

Thanks Mike, that's about what I was imagining. Still kind of hard to imagine how someone might imitate one though.

[Mike Covell]

I imagine that the fire engine had a bell of some sort, to warn others of it's arrival, which would have been ringing as it went.
Coincidently, I was carrying out some local research recently into the Hull Police Force during the period, and the Police had a hand in operating the fire engines, at one point.

There were two verities available in Hull during the period,
Horse Drawn, which was similiar to the ones pictured in the above link,
Hand Drawn, which were similar to a barrow with a barrel and nothing more.

During the early 1880's, the Police fire brigade, and the Fire fire brigade turned up to a burning building in Hull, rather than get along, they ended up fighting, the building burnt down, and local council decided that the police should, from there on, stick to policing!!

[kensei]

Anyone know if there were any fires anywhere in the area of the Double Event during the day of September 29, 1888?

[Mike Covell]

Found this one Kensei,

http://www.casebook.org/press_reports/east_london_advertiser/ela880901.html

East London Advertiser Saturday, 1 September 1888.

The full newspaper archive on this site has a text search, so by entering "Fire" you might get a few more hits, perhaps some closer both geographically, and to the event.

[Monty]

Kensei,

Its a myth that she was impersonating a fire engine, she was too drunk even to stand.

And check out St James Place.

Monty

[Pippin Joan]

Thanks, Mike, for coming up with the dock fire article! I remembered that a large fire was mentioned at some inquests, with people trooping down to see the blaze. I can see Kate, with her belligerant sense of humour, being hurried into the police station, faster than her drunken state could bear, saying, "Where's the fire?" and going into an imitation of a hurtling wagon with a clanging bell. Which, of course, caused her to collapse on the floor. Poor creature, keeping up humour to the end, with her snappy comeback to the policeman as she left the station. She impresses me as the saddest and most pathetic of all the Ripper victims. Her autopsy photos show a woman in terrible health, probably malnourished to the point of starvation. Her belongings inventory reveal her to be a true "bag lady", with everything she owned on her person. The others might have lived day to day, but they weren't that far gone.

[Celesta]

The story is a myth, or so I've been instructed. It originated with an early Ripper author, whose facts were not always verifiable.

[Supe]

As Monty said, it didn't happen. Not a single contemporary source found to date mentions the fire-engine imitation. That we, today, find it so delightful would certainly suggest that it would have also seemed so 120 years ago and contempoirary accounts would thus have been rich with that anecdote.

Don.

[Sam Flynn]

It's probably just a conflation and distortion of the facts - e.g., she had a ladder in her stocking, she died not far from St Mary Axe, and someone heard that Jack was down on hose. Perhaps Mr Bell would like to comment...

[George Hutchinson]

PJ - the dock fires were, I think, on the night of the Polly Nichols murder and John Pizer had been seen in the street up as far as Holloway looking at the illumination of the sky. Without checking sources I think that's it.

I'm not sure where the story started about CE doing the fire engine but I understand it is 20th Century - somewhere between Leonard Matters in 1928 and Tom Cullen in 1965. My money's currently on Woodhall or McCormick.

PHILIP

[Chris]

I'm not sure where the story started about CE doing the fire engine but I understand it is 20th Century - somewhere between Leonard Matters in 1928 and Tom Cullen in 1965. My money's currently on Woodhall or McCormick.

I can't see it in McCormick; actually, I can't see it in Cullen either, though it is certainly in Farson.

[Monty]

Not Woodhall, I thought it was off a news report.

[Celesta]

One of our Simons and Mitch Rowe, aka Leather Apron, told me who the author was and corrected me about the story. I apologize for forgetting if it was Simon Wood or Simon Owen. It was before the crash. The story does appear in Cornwell's book, which is where I first heard it.

Could have started with Farson, Chris.