Kate Eddowes as Mary Ann Kelly.

[richardnunweek]

Oh Simon.
I am not trying to mock Fiona, and i am not intent in putting the curse on any future publication that she may well be working on.. that is a fact.
I sincerley hope that such a book is written , which reveals all, but there are some morals in life that should not be targetted as financial, and to me if Fiona has a suspect to name, money [ for the memory of the victims, and their familys] should not be the target.
I can of course only reflect my own convictions.
Regards Richard.

[claire]

Hi Claire,
Her stories were infact mentioned initially in 'Good Faith', but as you know, some casebook members challenged her authenticity, and that was that, enter Coral, who explained her [ fiona's] reluctance to proceed with the way conversation was apparently heading, which was lets 'discuss this further', but alas Fiona froze, and although willing to discuss her familys colourful life, is not prepeared to answe questions that are really relevant to 'Casebook' namely the subject of 'Jack The Ripper'.
Regards Richard.

...which is a bit like going to MI6, saying you know where Osama Bin Laden is, and then only being prepared to talk about preparing halal food in caves

[Tom_Wescott]

You're a pretty funny chick, Claire.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[Salome]

Loving that analogy Claire!

[richardnunweek]

Hi Claire,
Your Interpretation sums it up prefectly, however I only hope that Fiona does not interpret our posts as a negative response, [ which i feel she may do] the fact is Fiona how can we write otherwise, when that juicy carrot is still in memory?
Regards Richard.

[Natalie Severn]

Thanks Claire. A reservation I still have is that we actually know that Mary Kelly went by several other names Emma was one of them .On her coffin her name was Marie Jaenette, which may have been an affectation she used but which may also have been the name she used in the West End brothel she told Joe about.She also claimed to have married a man named Davies and used the name McCarthy according to news reports.Over time word of mouth often gets altered and its possible Steve McCarthy didnt actually say he saw the name " Mary Kelly " on the passport but rather said ,"I saw Mary Kelly"s passport among her belongings".

[Simon Wood]

Hey Richard,

If someone resents/gets pissed off/offended/upset that one of their relatives was a JtR victim, that's called tough patooties. There's nothing they can do to change history. It's life. It's gone. Done. Finished. Personally, if one of my relatives proved to be MJK or JtR I'd dine out on it in style; not beat my breast and weep buckets.

Regards,

Simon

[Salome]

Hi Natalie,
I did look for other likely candidates on the passport register. There wasn't anyone that leapt out. You could be right in that a mistake was made and some other kind of document was seen, after all, Steve was relatively young -I wonder if he had even seen a passport up to that point.

[richardnunweek]

Hi Simon,
So would I my friend, I might initially think about any such accusations that could inflict hurt upon any living relatives, but because of the time frame, and the obvious nearest/dearest, being long gone, the desire for a hush/cover up would be non exsistant.
I would hardly dine out, because I am not [ seriously] motivated by financial rewards from this case. at my age/ my career, has only four years to go. [Yes] and I am content with my ability/financially to carry on, so to speak...without starvation.
Regards Richard.

[Natalie Severn]

Charlie Chaplin refers to Steve McCarthy in his autobiography.Apparently he partnered Charlie"s mother in Vaudeville. Chaplin spoke well of him and his kindness.The connection didnt end there either. Charlie"s son Sydney went out with the film star Kay Kendall,I think she was Fiona"s cousin.
You are quite right Salome,it could simply have been a document,maybe an identification or birth certificate.Would she have needed some kind of work permit perhaps to work or reside in France in 1888?

[Salome]

That's really interesting about Charlie Chaplin Natalie, I hadn't heard that before. What was Chaplin's mother called? Kay Kendall was Fiona K-L's cousin, there is a good book about her by her sister Kim and Eve Golden which talks about some early McCarthy/Kendall family history. Regarding the permit situation, I'm afraid I don't know the answer to that but in the book 'The London Underworld' Bracebridge Hemyng refers to the 'maisons de passe' which English girls were duped into going to. In these accounts the girls are asked to sign an agreement which I imagine legally bound them to the maison, however these agreements were usually held by the procurer of the girls.

[Natalie Severn]

Charlie"s mother was named Hannah but her stage name was Lilly Harley.He was very attached to his mother who he said inspired all his work.I believe she went out with Steve McCarthy briefly.His stage name was different too---can"t remember it.Thats very interesting research you"ve done Salome!

[claire]

Yes, great research, Salome. As an aside, I've sort of toyed with this idea of MJK having some connection with the halls (or even being a halls wannabe/hanger on)--but this might be romanticising things, the dismal life of the halls notwithstanding

[Salome]

She tells someone that she has a relative on the stage doesn't she? I have a feeling that this may have been fantasy on her part though. She had a perfect opportunity as a newcomer to London to invent any past for herself that she chose. I, like other Casebook readers, went through the records of the Scots Guards at the PRO and couldn't find a brother for her and I've never been able to find a marriage record to a Davies or Davis for her either despite Barnett asserting that they were 'lawfully married'.

[Debra A]

Eddowes as Mary Ann Kelly

Back in 2003, Dave O'Flaherty made this interesting post:

Posted on Monday, March 10, 2003 - 3:16 pm:
Ripperana, no. 12 has the answer to my question. In a piece on pages 15-16, Mark King writes that John and Mary Ann Kelly were still married and living at 3 Paternoster Row, Dorset Street in 1881.

Mark King references:

"1881 Census Return. John Kelly, 38, Dock Labourer, born Spitalfields. Mary Ann Kelly, 38, wife, Charwoman, born Whitechapel. Both resident at 3 Little Paternoster Row, Spitalfields."

What's really interesting to me is that a Mary Ann Kelly died of "haemorrhage from the lungs" in 1888, at 55 Flower and Dean Street! If she was John Kelly's Mary Ann, I wonder how she and Catherine Eddowes got along.

Mark King references:

"Death Certificate. Mary Ann Kelly, 15 May, 1888, 55 Flower and Dean Street, Spitalfields, aged 42. Occupation-Chair Caner. Sudden death. Haemorrhage from the lungs. Natural causes. Inquest held 17 May 1888."

Did Mark King or anyone else follow up on Mary Ann Kelly's death inquest? It seems reasonable that John Kelly would've testified, and possibly even Kate Eddowes.

It's not related to the later murder of Eddowes, but I think any light shed on the lives of contemporaries is interesting and important. This will be old news (but maybe forgotten?) to many, but it's all new to me, and I've never read any discussions about it.

Cheers,
Dave

Going through the Whitechapel Infirmary records recently,I came across the regular appearance of a woman named Mary Ann Kelly in those records. In the majority of her entries, this Mary Ann Kelly gives her address as 55 Flower and Dean Street and her given ages tally with a year of birth of c1846; three details that correspond with the details on the death certificate found by Mark King.

However, this Mary Ann Kelly claims to be the widow of a man named William Kelly, not John. William is described as a porter or timber porter.
The last entry I could find for this particular Mary Ann Kelly, widow of William, was in October 1887, when her address was again given as 55 Flower and Dean Street.

In the Infirmary records, this Mary Ann Kelly claims to have had one year settlement in the parish of Whitechapel (to qualify for treatment there) so may have come from another parish.

Looking in the 1881 census for this lady, I found a widow listed as Mary Kelly of the right age and her occupation given as a chair caner (as mentioned in the death certificate) living in Bethnal Green:

1881 England Census about Mary Kelly
Name: Mary Kelly
Age: 34
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1847
Relation: Head
Gender: Female
Where born: Shoreditch
Civil parish: Bethnal Green
County/Island: London
Country: England
Street Address: 3 Collingwood S
Condition as to marriage: Windower (Widower)
Education:

Employment status:

View image
Occupation: Chair Caner
Registration district: Bethnal Green
Sub-registration district: Bethnal Green

I haven't been able to trace Mary Ann Kelly in 1871 or find a marriage entry between a William Kelly and a Mary Ann before 1881, as yet.
Mark King did not transcribe the name of the informant from the death certificate and I cannot see mention of the name John in the transciption. Perhaps the name John does appear on there somewhere but Mark didn't mention it?
But, is it also possible that the Mary Ann Kelly who died in May 1888, aged 42 a chair caner,living at 55 Flower and Dean Street was not married to Eddowes' John Kelly? And that isn't them in the 1881 census?