Eddowes V-shape wounds are scissors I think

[Sam Flynn]

If you are going to cut someones throat, and rip their abdomens open with a long bladed knife, are you going to fanny about with a pair of scissors. lets get real here folks

Quite.

[Trevor Marriott]

I totally didn't see that one coming but you are right, they are being explained as yet again coincidental. I think it has a shot of being right though. I am 50/50 on it but I think if such a thing were reproducible then pathology would see these V type (or U type) cuts in more homicide cases involving knife slashes. So why is it that pathologists the world over haven't come forward to say, oh yeah, here are a bunch of examples of this sort of incidental wounding through slashes to the face. We are talking about JtR, arguably the world's most read serial killer, and Eddowes V-shapes, which are part and parcel of talking about how Eddowes died. It was the start of JtR attacking their faces. It is this lack of corroboration with the community of pathologists that makes me think it isn't what is happening here. This is why scissors could have explanatory power. Quite a few unsavory individuals were caught with scissors. It also points at tailors and not away from them but anyone can carry scissors. It's a pity their clothes were not photographed or the apron piece. Well, maybe they were, but are long lost now, stolen or destroyed.

If you are going to cut someones throat, and rip their abdomens open with a long bladed knife, are you going to fanny about with a pair of scissors. lets get real here folks !

https://www.trevormarriott.o.uk

[Michael W Richards]

Ive read Sams dissertation on the matter and found it to be principally sound, but the fact that he sought to mutilate her face by cutting her nose is precedent for presupposing other marks were also made intentionally. Its established that he deliberately wanted to mark her face, now, to what extent?

There are cases where we have seen victims faces marked and in some of those cases the marks were intentional and intended to label the victim. I read here somewhere that snitches had their faces cut to let others know what happens to them. It would seem, if the story that Kate was going to go to the authorities with a name is real, then she might be considered a "snitch" by some.

[Batman]

What I've learnt from ripperology over the years is that 'coincidence' is typically the most highly used response to anything that seems out of the ordinary .
For what it's worth , I'm convinced it was deliberate ...... and I wouldn't worry too much about the lighting
Lighting was essential for some of the other mutilations
What we should be focused on is where the lighting came from

I totally didn't see that one coming but you are right, they are being explained as yet again coincidental. I think it has a shot of being right though. I am 50/50 on it but I think if such a thing were reproducible then pathology would see these V type (or U type) cuts in more homicide cases involving knife slashes. So why is it that pathologists the world over haven't come forward to say, oh yeah, here are a bunch of examples of this sort of incidental wounding through slashes to the face. We are talking about JtR, arguably the world's most read serial killer, and Eddowes V-shapes, which are part and parcel of talking about how Eddowes died. It was the start of JtR attacking their faces. It is this lack of corroboration with the community of pathologists that makes me think it isn't what is happening here. This is why scissors could have explanatory power. Quite a few unsavory individuals were caught with scissors. It also points at tailors and not away from them but anyone can carry scissors. It's a pity their clothes were not photographed or the apron piece. Well, maybe they were, but are long lost now, stolen or destroyed.

[packers stem]

https://www.casebook.org/images/rip73-photo1.jpg

So basically the Vs come from the tip of the knife cutting through the nose? They are incidental.

But they are on both sides of her face, under each eye.

What I've learnt from ripperology over the years is that 'coincidence' is typically the most highly used response to anything that seems out of the ordinary .
For what it's worth , I'm convinced it was deliberate ...... and I wouldn't worry too much about the lighting
Lighting was essential for some of the other mutilations
What we should be focused on is where the lighting came from

[Abby Normal]

Okay, thanks for that. Sounds decidedly Dickensian, Alfred Croote...

lol I wasthinking the exact same thing.

[Fisherman]

Yes, that was the man in MA Street, I believe.

The spelling of the family name is sometimes with, sometimes without the terminal 'e'. It's a while ago now, but I did look for a connection between Alfred and Jesse, with no success as far as I can remember.

Okay, thanks for that. Sounds decidedly Dickensian, Alfred Croote...

[MrBarnett]

Alfred Croote? I seem to remember an Alfred Croote.

Yes, that was the man in MA Street, I believe.

The spelling of the family name is sometimes with, sometimes without the terminal 'e'. It's a while ago now, but I did look for a connection between Alfred and Jesse, with no success as far as I can remember.

[Fisherman]

Each to his own, Batman. To me, itīs a very good explanation. I donīt predispose that two nicked eyelids must mean that two flaps in the cheek flesh must have been carried out one after the other. I do, however, believe that this was always a tempting suggestion. It is a lot more intriguing that way - but sometimes intriguing matters must give way for practical ones...

[Fisherman]

Yes, he was the boyfriend of Kate's cousin, Sarah Eddowes. It's a fairly tenuous connection.

Incidentally, there was also a Croot(e) living at the same address in Mary Ann Street as Ma Lechmere in 1871 (from memory). It's a fairly unusual name, so there may be a connection there, too, but probably not.

Alfred Croote? I seem to remember an Alfred Croote.

[Batman]

BTW - I think it's not a bad explanation at all, but I would like to see it being done to know for sure. Plus it looks like this explanation can actually be demonstrated.

[Batman]

You need to look again. Post 69, second sketch from the top. Both cheeks, both flaps. Promise!

https://forum.casebook.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=3405&d=1223002499

Ah, okay I see now. I really didn't expect to see that both are being done in one movement. It is a nice illustration but I don't think this is how they were made.

I think the idea that both wounds were made in one movement is a bit unlikely given JtR made the wounds over each eye-lid by deliberately going to each part of the cheek under the eye. So he was going back and forth on them.

In the illustration, the edge (middle) of the knife is on the bridge of the nose first. The heel (blade near handle) and tip (blade near point) will not be making contact with either upper cheeks at the same time. It would be pivoting on the nose.

You would have to tip back towards the heel or upwards towards the point to touch either cheek. So the knife would be pointing either up or down to reach each side.

However, if they saw straight down, the focal point of pressure would be on the knife edge cutting down, sawing until it hit the bone. It would have to be a straight knife, not curved to be making contact with both checks.

Yet it is a sawing motion of the cut that makes this cut go down. The slice in the illustration is a chop rather than a sawing motion. It is hard to imagine how sawing motions could even 'peel' two u-shapes let alone v-shapes. Would slicing do this also? I think this could easily be replicated in a video if it were possible. I'd watch a demonstration.

[MrBarnett]

You must treat me to it some time, Gary. It sounds very interesting. I somehow seem to remember the name Croote; have you discussed him before?

Yes, he was the boyfriend of Kate's cousin, Sarah Eddowes. It's a fairly tenuous connection.

Incidentally, there was also a Croot(e) living at the same address in Mary Ann Street as Ma Lechmere in 1871 (from memory). It's a fairly unusual name, so there may be a connection there, too, but probably not.

[Fisherman]

There's a possible Wolverhampton connection between Kate Eddowes and Henry Tomkins - via a man named Jesse Croote. It's a long story, and there is actually a wolf in it.

You must treat me to it some time, Gary. It sounds very interesting. I somehow seem to remember the name Croote; have you discussed him before?

[Fisherman]

I saw how one side was made in the series of sketches. The one under her right eye. Did he do a sketch for the left also?

You need to look again. Post 69, second sketch from the top. Both cheeks, both flaps. Promise!