Mitre Sq., arranged meeting scenarios

[Batman]

I am wondering if it possible that JtR was a person who met with Eddowes and gave her money so that she could get drunk with him but got so totally smashed that she collapsed in public before he could get her into any secluded area.

This would broker the possibility that he was in the crowd that gathered around watching what would happen to her. When the PC arrived he then probably knew she was going to the drunk tank at Bishopsgate and figured she would be in there for quite a while. He may have even asked the office where they were taking her. This was at 8:30 p.m

Vexed and drunk JtR went away planning to come back and hang around Bishopsgate area waiting to see if she would be let out.

Two hours and thirty minutes later Stride is seen with some men at different times. Then somewhere between 12:30 and 12:50 he strikes Stride. He is already angered that he has failed to hit Eddowes and is decompensating, making mistakes. He heads back towards Bishopsgate to see if Eddowes is out. This would explain why he headed that exact direction.

He arrives a few minutes after Eddowes has been let back out and finds her in the area. She meets up with him again and goes with him despite knowing she is in for a good hiding for being out so late, she also knows that money is important to put shoes on her partner who sold them that morning. This would explain how she would have known him and gone with him, because of the earlier meeting.

Anyway, the possibility here is JtR was in the crowd as Eddowes was being dragged off to the drunk tank.

There is a missing portion of time for Eddowes before she was found drunk. Where she was, how she got money for drink, would be big questions to ask.

Another scenario is that the arrangement to meet with Eddowes was done while she was in the cell. That, someone, was there and agreed to meet her when they both got out. However, Eddowes doesn't indicate she was going to a meeting but was late and better get home.

We must also consider the possibility that JtR didn't meet Eddowes but was in the crowd wondering how to get to this drunk woman at some stage. However the familiarity she expressed with JtR when seen by Lewende, suggests some prior comfort being around this person, especially when she told her partner she wasn't going to fall into the hands of the Ripper.

[Sam Flynn]

Surely he'd just go and find someone else? Besides, Jack doesn't strike me as the type to be out stalking in the late afternoon or early evening when Eddowes would have started drinking before being taken to the cells.

[Batman]

Surely he'd just go and find someone else? Besides, Jack doesn't strike me as the type to be out stalking in the late afternoon or early evening when Eddowes would have started drinking before being taken to the cells.

I wrote he went off and found Stride.

[Busy Beaver]

"Surely he'd just go and find someone else? Besides, Jack doesn't strike me as the type to be out stalking in the late afternoon or early evening when Eddowes would have started drinking before being taken to the cells."

Agreed Sam.

A lot of things hinge on how we "see" Jack. Is he the joker, who meets up with his victims, talks & drinks with them and later on kills them. Or his he a man who casually walks down the street, is approached by the victim, goes to a dark area and then kills quite quickly and ferociously with no small talk in between, or in the case of Eddowes whilst she's poking his chest, a silent nod or a cunning smile?

[Sam Flynn]

I wrote he went off and found Stride.

A few hours later, and in a different part of the East End? There were loads of pubs, and potential victims in between. Why bother going back to find Eddowes specifically, when there was no knowing when, or if, she'd be released from custody?

[Batman]

Agreed Sam.

A lot of things hinge on how we "see" Jack. Is he the joker, who meets up with his victims, talks & drinks with them and later on kills them. Or his he a man who casually walks down the street, is approached by the victim, goes to a dark area and then kills quite quickly and ferociously with no small talk in between, or in the case of Eddowes whilst she's poking his chest, a silent nod or a cunning smile?

What you are asking is if JtR is an organized or disorganized offender. What we know about JtR is that he is both semi-organized and semi-disorganized. He must be organized to have a knife with him. He must be organized to be able to carry away things from his victim, even body parts. He must be organized enough to know his escape routes. Therefore there is no reason not to believe he would also organize and plan places and possibly people he would hit. He may have even been with these unfortunates before. It is extremely common for many serial killers of 'prostitutes' not to kill each one they meet or kill them the first time they meet them. JtR could have been every bit the 'John' that he was a serial killer. He could have well been known to them.

Someone like JtR at that time would have been always stalking when he could, always planning when could, always thinking about the murders when he could. It was have consumed him.

It is very interesting that Eddowes gave her name as Mary Ann Kelly and JtRs next victim was one middle name different.

Not to mention all the links to Dorset St.,

[Batman]

A few hours later, and in a different part of the East End? There were loads of pubs, and potential victims in between. Why bother going back to find Eddowes specifically, when there was no knowing when, or if, she'd be released from custody?

It's a 15 min walk there from where Eddowes was found drunk. There is no reason why he didn't explore possible victims everywhere and didn't get the opportunity until he came upon Stride. No doubt he would be stalking. Why should stalking for a few hours be an issue? Many serial killers claim the stalking itself is satisfying enough... for a while. Serial killers have done it plenty. Rapists also. One rape doesn't work out and they immediately go off and find someone else. Serial killers that have targetted places have often switched to another nearby, such as a neighbour, because they have built up themselves to do something there and then. It often around these times that they make mistakes. The word is decompensation. An example of decompensation leading to capture is Jeffery Dahmer.

He missed Eddowes and made a mistake with Stride. Schwartz even saw him. So in a state of decompensation he decides it is less risky to get back out of the area and heads towards the drunk tank to see if Eddowes was out yet. He didn't have to know she would be in or out. Just hang around awhile, stalk more and see if she shows up.

Obviously he could know very well how these drunk tanks work being experienced with them. If she didn't show then he would move on.

[Busy Beaver]

What you are asking is if JtR is an organized or disorganized offender.

Not quite Batman, more his personality- was he jovial and BBF to begin with and then later on turned killer, or was he the type that once he had a potential victim beside him was he a full on killer, no friends stuff or any small talk- straight in for the kill.

If Eddowes thought she knew the killer, why did she not mention it to one of the Policemen on duty in the cells? The PC who let her go was engaged in a bit of small talk with Kate before she left. I'm sure he would have listened quite attentively to every word Kate said and asked her more questions. If Kate was so sure, she could have been kept in the cells over night, or walked home accompanied by a PC for her own safety or given some other "protection". It was a shame that she took matters into her own hands.

[Batman]

If Kate was so sure, she could have been kept in the cells over night, or walked home accompanied by a PC for her own safety or given some other "protection". It was a shame that she took matters into her own hands.

Why she should be afraid of someone who was giving her either money to buy the drink or giving her drink itself? Her partner is shoeless.

All that I am suggesting up til this point is that he was getting her drunk to take her somewhere secluded but by the time they hit fresh air she went down, which may have even saved her life for the time being.

Maybe she did mention it to the PC. I have already pointed out the possibility that JtR was in the crowd watching what will happen next. However, why should he be a suspicious person at this stage? Just a drunk woman being plied drink by a drunk man. Another day in Whitechapel.

There is nothing remarkable about the incident other than her getting drunk so there would be no cause for her to be concerned or for the PC on duty either.

There is plenty of time for all this happen also. Out one late afternoon, meets Eddowes, she gets drunk, he plans to take her somewhere, she collapses, he goes off to find someone else, finds Stride, he partially fails to commit his signature on her (harvesting and mutilation) and then goes back to see if Eddowes is out yet. Hangs around awhile and eventually sees her.

In short, there doesn't seem anything about this narrative to prevent it from being the case. I'm listening though.

Also, why shouldn't JtR try changing the time of day he strikes? He had already struck twice in the early hours of the morning, a pattern that can be detected. So why not change that around? I bet PCs were told to be on more alert at such early hour times.

[Abby Normal]

hi Batman
I think the ripper, was local avg joe appearance wise and frequented pubs and maybe prostitutes (although perhaps not having sex with them) before and during his crimes.

Therefore its not crazy that some of his victims might have known him at least casually.except for Kelly, who I think the evidences indicates she knew her killer better than that.

to me, eddowes circs does seem to me that she may have known him-as it seems quite quickly from when shes released to when she goes off with him. more easily explained is she knew him and thought it was safe.

however, your scenarios in your first post go too far for me. its not that its not possible, its just that theres no evidence that she was with him that night previous to getting released from jail.

[Busy Beaver]

As I mentioned before, it all depends on how we seethe killer.
I personally don't see Jack as the type of killer who would hang out and have a drink with his victim. I pretty much believe that he walked casually around whitechapel in areas where he might just get lucky and not be seen. The victim would have accosted him and they would go to a dark place and he killed them.

If Jack was seen with his victim, then surely someone would have come forward and said that they saw them having a jolly time in such and such a pub. Polly Nicols said to Emily Holland that she had her doss money three times on the day that she was killed, so whether she turned a trick or three to get the money, or she nicely asked someone if they could spare a few pennies, I don't think we will ever know. We do know that she was seen walking down whitechapel high street at 23.00hrs and then drinking in the Frying Pan pub at about 0.30am before returning to her lodgings, but no one was able to say who she was with and again like Kate, how would the Ripper know if Polly was going out to be on the streets again, unless she saw him in the pub as someone to casually talk to and she told him that she had drunk all her doss money and was going to try her luck back at the doss house to try to "charm" a bed but if she failed she'd be out again, and in that case, why would the new found friend who would be her killer not just take her round the nearest dark corner and kill her there and then? I don't think Jack was that selective, nor was waiting his strong point.

[Batman]

hi Batman
... however, your scenarios in your first post go too far for me. its not that its not possible, its just that theres no evidence that she was with him that night previous to getting released from jail.

There is no evidence to support it, but it seems that some hours are missing from Eddowes in Whitechapel and IF she was with JtR before getting pulled into the drunk tank this would be a spanner in his works and could explain why he went into a frenzy that night even prior to Stride. I am wondering if this could explain specifically why he went to Mitre Sq., knowing that he stood a chance of finding her again and why it appears she met someone who she had no problem being alone with, to the point that they ended up in a dark corner of Mitre Sq.

BTW, the 'arranged meeting' appears to have a historical reference in the investigation, at least it's discussed in Sugden's book. I just want to bring it up again. It could very well be that there is evidence around her that is being overlooked.

[Batman]

As I mentioned before, it all depends on how we seethe killer.
We do know that she was seen walking down whitechapel high street at 23.00hrs and then drinking in the Frying Pan pub at about 0.30am before returning to her lodgings, but no one was able to say who she was with and again like Kate, how would the Ripper know if Polly was going out to be on the streets again, unless she saw him in the pub as someone to casually talk to and she told him that she had drunk all her doss money and was going to try her luck back at the doss house to try to "charm" a bed but if she failed she'd be out again, and in that case, why would the new found friend who would be her killer not just take her round the nearest dark corner and kill her there and then? I don't think Jack was that selective, nor was waiting his strong point.

IF JtR knew his victims, then from the pub and using their services would be the most obvious avenue. He would be someone they would never directly suspect. He would probably have scores of these women who know him from around Whitechapel with a possibility that each of these women who may have known each other, may not have known they both know the same person. So wouldn't even link him up unless they saw him with the other person or they talked about them.

What this means is that any of these women out at night would be a potential candidate in the right place at the right time for JtR to shed his trustworthy friendly character and show himself the monster he really is.

In short, he doesn't have to be specifically out looking for Nicholas that night, even if he had a drink with her before. He could be looking for any of his known lady 'friends' of the night. Obviously, any of them will do.

[spyglass]

Hi all,

I've been thinking along the same lines this week strangely as I walk through this area every morning.
I only recently realised that the spot where shes was arrested is only a couple of minutes from where she was murdered.

I had always thought she was arrested further up Aldgate High st, and so it seems likely that she was returning to the same area when released.

regards

[Batman]

Hi all,

... so it seems likely that she was returning to the same area when released.

regards

Good point. This requires an explanation.

Why was she going that way when she said she would in trouble for not being at home?

Even wikipedia says...

instead of turning right to take the shortest route to her home in Flower and Dean Street, she turned left towards Aldgate

Damn if that doesn't actually give more credence to this 'arranged meeting' idea.