Chapman Timeline

[FISHY1118]

incorrect. his evidence from the inquest testimony was that he also sat on the back step to mess with his shoe. which means if she was there her body and head would not only have been inches from his foot but also in his line of vision as he looked down. no way he misses that.

she wasnt there yet.

Your omitting what he said to Inspector Chandler , let me refresh your memory.

[Coroner] Did you see John Richardson? - I saw him about a quarter to seven o'clock. He told me he had been to the house that morning about a quarter to five. He said ''he came to the back door and looked down to the cellar, to see if all was right, and then went away to his work.
[Coroner] Did he say anything about cutting his boot? - No.

[FISHY1118]

Invention.

Prove it

Your omitting what he said to Inspector Chandler , let me refresh your memory.

[Coroner] Did you see John Richardson? - I saw him about a quarter to seven o'clock. He told me he had been to the house that morning about a quarter to five. He said ''he came to the back door and looked down to the cellar, to see if all was right, and then went away to his work.
[Coroner] Did he say anything about cutting his boot? - No.


Proved !

[FISHY1118]

You haven’t answered as ever. Sorry but I’m not going to keep explaining simple stuff to you that everyone else can understand.

Your post is nonsense from start to finish. Go and discuss something else.

Its only nonsence to you because it makes a mockery of your arguement and you dont like it .

[FISHY1118]

I think we all know that in Victorian London in 1888 clocks were not synchronized. That is a fact that is beyond dispute. We also know that Long didn't see a clock, she heard it strike. The clock could have been inaccurate - fact, and she might have confused the quarter hour striking for the half hour - fact. We know from her evidence that 5. 15 am would have been quite plausible given her starting time, and the distance she travelled. We know that the Coroner didn't see any problem with her evidence, nor did the police. Suggesting that we today, know better than the Coroner and the police in 1888 is frankly ludicrous.

Let's move on!

[John Davies] I was awake from three a.m. to five a.m. on Saturday, and then fell asleep until a quarter to six,'' when the clock at Spitalfields Church struck''. I had a cup of tea and went downstairs to the back yard. The house faces Hanbury-street, with one window on the ground floor and a front door at th

Mrs. Elizabeth Long said: I live in Church-row, Whitechapel, and my husband, James Long, is a cart minder. On Saturday, Sept. 8, about half past five o'clock in the morning, I was passing down Hanbury-street, from home, on my way to Spitalfields Market. I knew the time, because I heard the brewer's clock strike half-past five just before I got to the street.



It has to be stressed that John Davies didnt see a clock either .

In defence of Mrs Long as to the above comment .

[FISHY1118]

Just to make it clear all - including you..the question that I asked was this..

Are you of the belief that all clocks and watches in the Victorian era were synchronised?

The answer is a YES or NO

Ive received no direct answer to that simple question.

Perhaps because its the most stupid question ever asked on here ....... The answer to which either way would prove absolutely nothing .

[FISHY1118]

There’s none. He’s making it up. The overwhelming evidence is that she died at 5.30. A child could u detest and this stuff but sadly some can’t Doc.

A child you say .... hmmmm

[Doctored Whatsit]

[QUOTE=FISHY1118;n855770]



It has to be stressed that John Davies didnt see a clock either .

[Quote]

I really cannot see what the significance of this comment can possibly be. The exact time of his actions is not important, a few minutes either way makes no difference.

[Doctored Whatsit]

Er ... The ''John Richardson'' thread of 4000 post that shows it to be so. I certainly wont be reposting any of them again ,but feel free to check it out .

I am well aware of the "John Richardson" thread, and I recall no overwhelmong evidence of an earlier time of death. You cannot repost it, because it isn't there.

[Herlock Sholmes]

Your omitting what he said to Inspector Chandler , let me refresh your memory.

[Coroner] Did you see John Richardson? - I saw him about a quarter to seven o'clock. He told me he had been to the house that morning about a quarter to five. He said ''he came to the back door and looked down to the cellar, to see if all was right, and then went away to his work.
[Coroner] Did he say anything about cutting his boot? - No.


Proved !

Why would he have been required to mention the boot-cutting? It wasn’t relevant. All that he felt was relevant was the fact that he went to the back door, could see all around the yard and there was no body there.

[Herlock Sholmes]

Its only nonsence to you because it makes a mockery of your arguement and you dont like it .

I asked you a simple but specific question requiring a ‘yes’ or ‘no’ answer. As I predicted you failed to answer And as I predicted you then falsely claimed to have answered it. It’s the same old from you Fishy. A straight discussion is impossible with you.

[Herlock Sholmes]

Perhaps because it’s the most stupid question ever asked on here ....... The answer to which either way would prove absolutely nothing .

No answer though.

[Herlock Sholmes]

This thread is about the timeline and nothing else. If anyone wishes to go over issues related to the ToD yet again please use…

https://forum.casebook.org/forum/rip...tod#post855784

[Herlock Sholmes]

I am well aware of the "John Richardson" thread, and I recall no overwhelmong evidence of an earlier time of death. You cannot repost it, because it isn't there.

Exactly Doc. I get this every time with Fishy. This is why I joke about predicting whether it’s ‘ignore the question,’ ‘change the subject,’ ‘obfuscate,’ etc. I’ve lost count of the amount of times we have got to the point where out it comes…”I’ve answered your question.” Then I ask show me where” to which comes something like “it’s not up to me to find you the answer.’ Then I go back through the thread, past the beginning of the discussion and guess what :absolutely no answer to the question.” Sensible discussion is impossible.

This is someone who is denying that when Cadosch estimated the time that he went into the yard it might actually have been w or 3 or 4 or 5 minutes later. Can you believe this. Someone believes this to have been impossible. That I’m making things up to fit some kind of ‘theory.’ How can we discuss anything sensibly with this approach. It’s the same type of thinking that we get when certain people reject it when every single modern medical expert and every single medical text book and every single paper on the subject tells us that the methods that Dr Phillips used were unreliable ones for estimating ToD. But no, it can’t be, they know better than these experts, maybe the textbooks are forgeries? Maybe Dr Phillips had a TARDIS? Maybe he was a secret superhero? Or…maybe these experts know what they are talking about.

Tbh Doc there’s so much that’s debatable in this case but I’m totally sick and tired of wasting time trying desperately to convince some that 1+1=2 and that night follows day or that hippos can’t fly. What’s the point?

[Tom_Wescott]

I’m trying to work out Annie’s movements in regard to Crossingham’s. So..


The Times


About 7.00 on Friday she turns up

She asks to be allowed into the kitchen

Donovan asks where she’s been

She tells him the infirmary

She stayed there until just before 2.00am Saturday

She leaves asking for her bed to be kept


The Telegraph


About 2.00-3.00 on Friday afternoon she turns up

She asks to be allowed into the kitchen

Donovan asks where she’s been

She tells him the infirmary

He next sees her at 1.30-1.45

She asks for her bed to be kept


Morning Advertiser


About 11.30pm on Friday she turns up

Donovan asks where she’s been

She tells him the infirmary

She leaves in the direction of Bishopsgate Street

At around 1.40 she returns

She asks for her bed to be keep before leaving


Evening News


About 2.00pm Friday she turns up

Donovan asks where she’s been

She tells him the infirmary

He next saw her around 1.30am Saturday

She asks for her bed to be kept

She leaves around 1.45-1.50am


Pall Mall Gazette


At about 11.30pm on Friday she turns up

Donovan asks where she’s has been

She tells him the infirmary

She leaves in the direction of Bishopsgate Street

1.40 she’s back asking for her bed to be kept

She leaves


Amelia Farmer saw her at 5.00 on Friday afternoon and then a few minutes later saying that she needed to get money for her lodgings

…..

That she left around 1.45 is no problem. Only 2 of the 5 has her leaving and returning but the have Donovan ‘not seeing her again until’ which I assume must be because she’d gone out. After all, was she really likely to have stayed in the kitchen for hours? So what time did she show up on Friday 7.00pm/ 2.00-3.00pm/ 11.30pm/

Thoughts?

I hate to muddy the waters, but there are a couple of points I'm uncertain about. First of all, it must be said that lodging house keepers and nightwatchmen are not generally to be trusted, and it's only on the word of Donovan and Brummie that we have Chapman leaving at/before 2am. Lodger Stevens (IIRC) saw Chapman with her bottles of medicine. Donovan was in possession of her medicine bottles after the murder and said he'd found them in her room, though he places this as occurring the week earlier. This has always bothered me. She went to the infirmary after leaving the house the week before. So how did she get the medicine before that? If she was ill the week earlier and retrieved medicine and lotion, why leave it behind at the house the week earlier? After Stevens saw her with the bottles he was under the impression that she had gone up to her 'room' on the second floor. Was she really ejected at 1:45 or was it later, when Brummie and Donovan exchanged notes and realized she hadn't paid for her bed?

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[FISHY1118]

[QUOTE=Doctored Whatsit;n855773][QUOTE=FISHY1118;n855770]



It has to be stressed that John Davies didnt see a clock either .

I really cannot see what the significance of this comment can possibly be. The exact time of his actions is not important, a few minutes either way makes no difference.

Im merely pointing out that just because Long didnt see the clock but heard the chime doesnt mean her time was wrong , you can suggest it was, but it doesnt detract from her statement. Just as John Davise statement, which if we are to believe him then same goes for Long . We have know way of knowing if Longs time given was able to be proven wrong by any other clock . Its just a guess.