Annie's last meal

[DJA]

I accept that, but do we have any evidence in the witness statements of Annie exhibiting symptoms of gastrointestinal TB?

One such feature is weight loss, which as far as I know was not an issue for Annie.

The other point I'd make is that this is a disease of the intestines as opposed to the stomach.

On balance, I would suggest that Annie did not have a condition that impeded digestion in the stomach (at least at this moment in time, perhaps somebody can come up with a compelling argument stating otherwise).

You have absolutely no idea what you are talking about.

Just for jolly Gut feeling secures medical Nobel for Australian doctors | Nature

[Fleetwood Mac]

No worries. I'm looking forward to seeing the research, with sample sizes, etc, on your potato claim that you say is "widely accepted"

- Jeff

As I said, Jeff, in terms of widely accepted it is there to be googled. I don't want to go down the road of this discussion being hijacked. The Richardson thread became a massive mess due to squabbling over the bits and pieces 'round the edges and unsubstantiated links from sites, of which I was a part by the way. 'Lesson learned: once bitten, twice shy.

In the end, I'm confident perceived wisdom is that in the event Annie's last meal was potatoes at 1.45am, they would have been fully digested in the stomach by 5.30am. A cursory google produces links on the first page where commentators are unequivocal on this. You see it differently, that's fine. Others can make their own mind up.

Either way, in the absence of any research to the contrary, I won't be getting involved in an argument on perceived wisdom regarding easily digestible potatoes and an almost 4 hour timeframe.

So, that's that on this particular issue (in the absence of research/data).

[Fleetwood Mac]

If Chapman had Fibromyalgia ,for instance,Dr Phillips would have had no way of knowing.
Usually caused by Streptococcus in the small intestine.
Newcastle University,NSW,unraveled the mystery 27 years ago,to the month.

I accept that, but do we have any evidence in the witness statements of Annie exhibiting symptoms of gastrointestinal TB?

One such feature is weight loss, which as far as I know was not an issue for Annie.

The other point I'd make is that this is a disease of the intestines as opposed to the stomach.

On balance, I would suggest that Annie did not have a condition that impeded digestion in the stomach (at least at this moment in time, perhaps somebody can come up with a compelling argument stating otherwise).

[DJA]

Gut microbiota - Wikipedia

Any vegetarian would be having a good laugh.

[Ms Diddles]

Quite possible, although any form of potato is easily digested and so 'little food in the stomach' does not fit 1.45am last meal/5.30am TOD.

On a related note: according to Timothy Donovan, Annie was eating "potatoes" and so I don't think we're talking about a jacket potato here. And, from what I can gather potatoes were peeled and boiled in the Victorian age. The other option is that Annie was eating what we know today as chips.

I don't expect this to sway you in any way, but here's an interesting article about baked tattie sellers in the LVP;

https://www.geriwalton.com/baked-potato-sellers/

Also Henry Mayhew interviewed numerous street traders as part of his survey of the under-classes.

This included a baked potato guy who reported that he sometimes gave tick.

No time to post link but Google "Henry Mayhew interview baked potato man" and you'll see it.

Not the hard facts or statistical analysis which you're intent on, but interesting (and in my opinion) pertinent nonetheless.

[JeffHamm]

It's widely accepted that potato is easily digested food. Type it in google and the first page links will pretty much all tell you: "60 minutes" or such.

As I said in the OP, I'd welcome any research, with sample size and food intake, which reasonably suggests that Annie could have eaten her last meal of potatoes at 1.45am and been murdered at 5.30am.

On the other hand, I'd rather not go through the same nonsense we had on the Richardson thread. In the absence of that research, just assume you're right and I'm wrong rather than post links that don't in any way, shape or form provide data to refute perceived wisdom.

No worries. I'm looking forward to seeing the research, with sample sizes, etc, on your potato claim that you say is "widely accepted" (by whom is it widely accepted? - sample sizes and food intact numbers will be interesting to see for that to back it up). I hope it's not just the first few websites Google throws up (which look pretty dodgy), but actual research on food digestion, and whether or not that means the food material is all gone, etc.

Healthline indicates that fruit and veg will move through in "less than a day" (compared to meat and fish, which may take 2 days, due to the more complex proteins). While 60 minutes is "less than a day", from their description I don't get that impression. To be honest, I'm not familiar with this website, so I'm not sure how much I would trust it.

Also, the Mayo Clinic (well respected medical clinic in the States) don't allow for anything like 60 minutes for anything as it takes 6-8 hours for food to pass through the stomach and small intestines, when it enters the large intestine for further digestion.

Anyway, before I look for research myself I'll just wait for you to post the links that provide us with sample sizes, and so forth, to start the ball rolling and with all of us at the same place. I may not have to look if those papers are sound, peer reviewed, and well supported.

- Jeff

[DJA]

At the inquest, Dr Phillips was directly asked: "was there any disease?" and there was no mention of anything that could cause digestive issues, nor was anything mentioned as a result of the post-mortem examination.

Dr Phillips' post-mortem observation was: "signs of great deprivation.......she had been badly fed", indicating that any malnourishment was a result of not eating often enough as opposed to any digestion issue.

If Chapman had Fibromyalgia ,for instance,Dr Phillips would have had no way of knowing.
Usually caused by Streptococcus in the small intestine.
Newcastle University,NSW,unraveled the mystery 27 years ago,to the month.

[DJA]

Gastrointestinal TB is a specific and rare disease not associated with the lungs.

In the event Annie's lung disease was TB, then the form of the TB you mention is not Annie's condition: Annie had a disease of the lungs.

Abdominal tuberculosis - Wikipedia

[Fleetwood Mac]

https://www.atlasobscura.com/article...al-bock-norris

in particular:
"If you know about a person’s last meal and can see the volume of material left in the stomach, you can determine (if the stomach is nearly empty) that a victim was killed six hours after eating or (if full) closer to one hour after a last meal."

Annie's stomach was nearly empty, so her last meal would be roughly 6 hours prior to her murder. Given it appears she had a small meal of potatoes, 6 hours would probably be considered on the long side though. So, if her meal at 1:45 was her last meal, finding that her stomach still contained a bit of this meal but not all of it means death was more than an 1 later (so after 2:45) but given there was some of it still detected in her stomach, that means there's nothing to preclude a murder at 3:45, or 4:45, or even 5:45, so take your pick.

- Jeff

It's widely accepted that potato is easily digested food. Type it in google and the first page links will pretty much all tell you: "60 minutes" or such.

As I said in the OP, I'd welcome any research, with sample size and food intake, which reasonably suggests that Annie could have eaten her last meal of potatoes at 1.45am and been murdered at 5.30am.

On the other hand, I'd rather not go through the same nonsense we had on the Richardson thread. In the absence of that research, just assume you're right and I'm wrong rather than post links that don't in any way, shape or form provide data to refute perceived wisdom.

[Fleetwood Mac]

Just found that T.B. can affect digestion.

"Gasrointestinal tuberculosis can affect any part of the digestive tract but it mostly affects the small and large intestine. Here are some symptoms of Gastrointestinal tuberculosis: Loss of body weight: People suffering from Gastrointestinal tuberculosis have trouble in proper digestion of food"

Helen X

Gastrointestinal TB is a specific and rare disease not associated with the lungs.

In the event Annie's lung disease was TB, then the form of the TB you mention is not Annie's condition: Annie had a disease of the lungs.

[Fleetwood Mac]

I read this somewhere

Potatoes are easy to digest as long as they are cooked until soft with the peel removed. A medium-sized potato cooked with its skin intact contains almost 4 grams of fiber, while the same potato peeled before cooking has about 2 grams. Boil, bake or microwave your potatoes and serve them with minimal fat.

Perhaps the skin wasn't removed when eaten or the potato wasn't cooked through

Regards Darryl

Quite possible, although any form of potato is easily digested and so 'little food in the stomach' does not fit 1.45am last meal/5.30am TOD.

On a related note: according to Timothy Donovan, Annie was eating "potatoes" and so I don't think we're talking about a jacket potato here. And, from what I can gather potatoes were peeled and boiled in the Victorian age. The other option is that Annie was eating what we know today as chips.

[Fleetwood Mac]

Perhaps she had a slow digestive system due to an underlying disease such as hypothyroidism or some other illness. We know she was described as manourished even though she didn't look particularly underweight so perhaps she has issuses digesting and absorbing nutrients from the meagre meals she managed to procure.

Helen x

At the inquest, Dr Phillips was directly asked: "was there any disease?" and there was no mention of anything that could cause digestive issues, nor was anything mentioned as a result of the post-mortem examination.

Dr Phillips' post-mortem observation was: "signs of great deprivation.......she had been badly fed", indicating that any malnourishment was a result of not eating often enough as opposed to any digestion issue.

[Darryl Kenyon]

I read this somewhere

Potatoes are easy to digest as long as they are cooked until soft with the peel removed. A medium-sized potato cooked with its skin intact contains almost 4 grams of fiber, while the same potato peeled before cooking has about 2 grams. Boil, bake or microwave your potatoes and serve them with minimal fat.

Perhaps the skin wasn't removed when eaten or the potato wasn't cooked through

Regards Darryl

[DJA]

5.30 am.

[JeffHamm]

https://www.atlasobscura.com/articles/crime-botany-forensics-murder-last-meal-bock-norris

in particular:
"If you know about a person’s last meal and can see the volume of material left in the stomach, you can determine (if the stomach is nearly empty) that a victim was killed six hours after eating or (if full) closer to one hour after a last meal."

Annie's stomach was nearly empty, so her last meal would be roughly 6 hours prior to her murder. Given it appears she had a small meal of potatoes, 6 hours would probably be considered on the long side though. So, if her meal at 1:45 was her last meal, finding that her stomach still contained a bit of this meal but not all of it means death was more than an 1 later (so after 2:45) but given there was some of it still detected in her stomach, that means there's nothing to preclude a murder at 3:45, or 4:45, or even 5:45, so take your pick.

- Jeff