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  • Annie's last meal

    I'm interested in the significance of Annie's last known meal and reasonable opinions as to what has happened here.

    What is known is as follows:

    1) Annie finishes her potatoes around 1.45am.
    2) Annie leaves Dorset Street with the express purpose of getting her doss money and telling them not to let her bed. In her own words.
    3) Dr Phillips: "little food in the stomach"
    4) Potato is an easily digested food, the consensus being within an hour.

    On point 4. There is no use in going 'round this discussion in the event you can reasonably show that Annie could quite conceivably have had potatoes as her last meal at 1.45am and murdered at 5.30am, with 'little food in the stomach'. Nobody wants to go 'round a pointless exercise. So, any scientific evidence to suggest that potatoes could reasonably have not been fully digested within the best part of four hours, please post it. On the other hand, don't simply post links. Substantiate the post, i.e. sample size, food digested and so on, so that it can be accepted that there is research out there which makes this a pointless discussion.

    My belief is that around 3am the last people are coming in off the streets to go to bed (where they have a bed to go to). This is the case in the Mary witness statements, and whether or not you believe he was there, George Hutchinson has in his mind that after 2am it's quietish. I can't remember which of the witnesses said this in Mary's case, but one of the women who lived in Miller's Court said something like McCarthy's shop could be open until 3am. I think we're getting to the general, approximate time where there is no market for food because the vast majority of people are off the streets.

    I'm looking at this and I'm thinking: Annie finished eating approx. 1.45am, she leaves her lodging house to find her doss money and tells them not to let her bed, in the event she gets a client who isn't her murderer, before 3am, does she use that money to buy food or go back to her lodging house? In my mind, given that she has eaten around an hour previously, she goes back to her lodging house. The conclusion being that eating again before 3am is unreasonable, and after 3am there doesn't appear to be a market for shops selling food being open.

    Assuming the TOD is approx. 5.30am, then she will have eaten again somewhere around 4.15am (in the absence of science to suggest otherwise). From where exactly does she get this food and why, given provision of food has never been prerequisite for street prostitution?

    I appreciate there are thousands of possibilities, but what I'm interested in is something reasonable. I'm just not seeing it.

  • #2
    Originally posted by Fleetwood Mac View Post
    I'm interested in the significance of Annie's last known meal and reasonable opinions as to what has happened here.

    What is known is as follows:

    1) Annie finishes her potatoes around 1.45am.
    2) Annie leaves Dorset Street with the express purpose of getting her doss money and telling them not to let her bed. In her own words.
    3) Dr Phillips: "little food in the stomach"
    4) Potato is an easily digested food, the consensus being within an hour.

    On point 4. There is no use in going 'round this discussion in the event you can reasonably show that Annie could quite conceivably have had potatoes as her last meal at 1.45am and murdered at 5.30am, with 'little food in the stomach'. Nobody wants to go 'round a pointless exercise. So, any scientific evidence to suggest that potatoes could reasonably have not been fully digested within the best part of four hours, please post it. On the other hand, don't simply post links. Substantiate the post, i.e. sample size, food digested and so on, so that it can be accepted that there is research out there which makes this a pointless discussion.

    My belief is that around 3am the last people are coming in off the streets to go to bed (where they have a bed to go to). This is the case in the Mary witness statements, and whether or not you believe he was there, George Hutchinson has in his mind that after 2am it's quietish. I can't remember which of the witnesses said this in Mary's case, but one of the women who lived in Miller's Court said something like McCarthy's shop could be open until 3am. I think we're getting to the general, approximate time where there is no market for food because the vast majority of people are off the streets.

    I'm looking at this and I'm thinking: Annie finished eating approx. 1.45am, she leaves her lodging house to find her doss money and tells them not to let her bed, in the event she gets a client who isn't her murderer, before 3am, does she use that money to buy food or go back to her lodging house? In my mind, given that she has eaten around an hour previously, she goes back to her lodging house. The conclusion being that eating again before 3am is unreasonable, and after 3am there doesn't appear to be a market for shops selling food being open.

    Assuming the TOD is approx. 5.30am, then she will have eaten again somewhere around 4.15am (in the absence of science to suggest otherwise). From where exactly does she get this food and why, given provision of food has never been prerequisite for street prostitution?

    I appreciate there are thousands of possibilities, but what I'm interested in is something reasonable. I'm just not seeing it.
    Hi FM!

    To my mind one possible solution is that when eating the baked potato in the lodging house kitchen, she pocketed an extra one for later consumption.

    That would be consistent with what someone who didn't know where their next meal was coming from may do.

    Pure speculation of course, but I'd say it's a reasonable possibility.....

    Comment


    • #3
      Originally posted by Ms Diddles View Post

      Hi FM!

      To my mind one possible solution is that when eating the baked potato in the lodging house kitchen, she pocketed an extra one for later consumption.
      I suppose the initial question is: from where exactly did Annie get the potato/es?

      Sources I've read suggest it wasn't from the lodging house.

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by Fleetwood Mac View Post

        I suppose the initial question is: from where exactly did Annie get the potato/es?

        Sources I've read suggest it wasn't from the lodging house.
        IIRC the information about Annie eating a baked potato comes from Timothy Donovan.

        I'd assumed that the potatoes were on offer in the lodging house kitchen, but it could be that she'd picked it up elsewhere and brought it in to eat there.

        Regardless, the simplest solution is that wherever she got that potato from, she helped herself to (or was given) an extra one which she ate later.

        Comment


        • #5
          Deceased was then eating potatoes, and went out.
          My name is Dave. You cannot reach me through Debs email account

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by Ms Diddles View Post

            IIRC the information about Annie eating a baked potato comes from Timothy Donovan.

            I'd assumed that the potatoes were on offer in the lodging house kitchen, but it could be that she'd picked it up elsewhere and brought it in to eat there.

            Regardless, the simplest solution is that wherever she got that potato from, she helped herself to (or was given) an extra one which she ate later.
            Press reports suggest she arrived at the lodging house with potatoes, as opposed to getting them in the lodging house.

            I'd disagree. Victorian age punishment was severe and you'd have to argue Annie had the opportunity. 'Too much of a stretch to deem this explanation to be reasonable.

            Comment


            • #7
              Suggesting that there’s a huge dinosaur swimming around in Loch Ness avoiding being seen by the public is unreasonable. Suggesting that the earth is flat is unreasonable. Suggesting that the Queen is a reptilian alien is unreasonable. Suggesting that a woman might have been in possession of 2 potatoes is hardly David Icke territory is it?

              Also, why the point about the severity of punishment? Are you assuming that she can only have stolen them?
              Regards

              Sir Herlock Sholmes.

              “A house of delusions is cheap to build but draughty to live in.”

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by Herlock Sholmes View Post
                Suggesting that there’s a huge dinosaur swimming around in Loch Ness avoiding being seen by the public is unreasonable. Suggesting that the earth is flat is unreasonable. Suggesting that the Queen is a reptilian alien is unreasonable. Suggesting that a woman might have been in possession of 2 potatoes is hardly David Icke territory is it?

                Also, why the point about the severity of punishment? Are you assuming that she can only have stolen them?
                I said reasonable. The idea that Annie begged, borrowed or stole a potato for farther down the line falls into the realms of "we just don't know" as opposed to reasonable.

                I'll wait on something more substantial.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by Fleetwood Mac View Post

                  Press reports suggest she arrived at the lodging house with potatoes, as opposed to getting them in the lodging house.

                  I'd disagree. Victorian age punishment was severe and you'd have to argue Annie had the opportunity. 'Too much of a stretch to deem this explanation to be reasonable.
                  Diddles idea is totally reasonable. seriously dude, whats your problem? plus you missed the point where she said she might have been given one. if your going to be incorrect and not understand someones post (again)at least dont be so arrogant lol
                  Last edited by Abby Normal; 08-22-2022, 10:14 PM.
                  "Is all that we see or seem
                  but a dream within a dream?"

                  -Edgar Allan Poe


                  "...the man and the peaked cap he is said to have worn
                  quite tallies with the descriptions I got of him."

                  -Frederick G. Abberline

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by Fleetwood Mac View Post

                    I said reasonable. The idea that Annie begged, borrowed or stole a potato for farther down the line falls into the realms of "we just don't know" as opposed to reasonable.

                    I'll wait on something more substantial.
                    “We just don’t know” is an entirely reasonable position. Claiming to know what someone couldn’t have done when we have no way of knowing isn’t reasonable.

                    Just because something can’t be proven it doesn’t make it unreasonable or unlikely or impossible. We have a gap of time with no idea what Chapman did or where she went or who she might or might not have had contact with. About a million things could have happened within that time, none of which we have any way of knowing about. Just as none of us can say that x must have occurred, you can’t say that x didn’t occur because we have no proof of it.

                    Just because she set out in search of a client it can’t mean that she did nothing but that. If she hadn’t managed to find one what could she have done but walk the streets? Who’s to say that she couldn’t have bumped into friend in the same position? No money but a bit of food which she decided to share with her friend?
                    Regards

                    Sir Herlock Sholmes.

                    “A house of delusions is cheap to build but draughty to live in.”

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Do we know for certain what Annie’s lung disease was?
                      Regards

                      Sir Herlock Sholmes.

                      “A house of delusions is cheap to build but draughty to live in.”

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Yep.

                        TB infections in the area ~ 25%.
                        My name is Dave. You cannot reach me through Debs email account

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Cheers
                          Regards

                          Sir Herlock Sholmes.

                          “A house of delusions is cheap to build but draughty to live in.”

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Also why Chapman's temperature was so low before her death.
                            Add in her lack of ATP due to malnourishment and we can understand Dr Phillips' assessment.
                            My name is Dave. You cannot reach me through Debs email account

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Perhaps she had a slow digestive system due to an underlying disease such as hypothyroidism or some other illness. We know she was described as manourished even though she didn't look particularly underweight so perhaps she has issuses digesting and absorbing nutrients from the meagre meals she managed to procure.

                              Helen x

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