Annie's last meal

[DJA]

Latter.

[Ms Diddles]

Hi Helen,

Annie was reported as having a meal of potatoes - plural. Baked jacket potatoes were popular at the time, being sold by street vendors and in pubs for one penny each. Potato is easily digested, the jackets not so much. Leaving the examination of stomach contents aside, if you ate two or more baked potatoes shortly before 2AM, would you be looking for more food or a place to sleep? My wife strongly assures me that it would be the later.

Cheers, George

Hi George,

I noticed that whilst Tim Donovan merely states that Annie was eating potatoes, a couple of contemporary newspaper reports (including the Telegraph IIRC) state that she was eating baked potatoes.

This seems to have filtered down and the potatoes are described as baked by some authors.

TBH I had always taken it for granted that the potatoes were baked, until FM pointed out that the type of potato is not specified in Donovan's statement.

Anyway, it's not definite but if contemporary news reports went with baked tatties, and we know that they were cheap and accessible at that time, that gets my bet.

(I've been doing a no carbs in the pm thing since lockdown, so am probably obsessing a little on this whole baked potato subject. I've been craving one ever since this topic came up! God, I'd kill for one. With cheese. And coleslaw. And loads of butter ...........!!!!)

[Parisi North Humber]

Hi George, Iagree with you wife lol. Sorry if my post seemed to imply I believe Annie ate after her potatoes. I was trying to explain my previous post using the word "guestimation" as in, on the evidence available i'm guessing/assuming Annie didn't eat after her potato meal, others may guess/assume differently. However as to TOD I don't think there is enough infomation on the stomach contents to pinpoint cessation of digestion.

Helen x

[Fleetwood Mac]

God, I'd kill for one.

Don't Ms Diddles, I'll send you one through the post. We're supposed to be solving crime rather than adding to the list.

I reckon the potatoes may have been what we know today as chips.

[Ms Diddles]

Don't Ms Diddles, I'll send you one through the post. We're supposed to be solving crime rather than adding to the list.

I reckon the potatoes may have been what we know today as chips.

What's your thinking there, FM?

(I'm asking because I'm interested, but also so I can ruminate on chips for a while!)

[Fleetwood Mac]

What's your thinking there, FM?

(I'm asking because I'm interested, but also so I can ruminate on chips for a while!)

'Happy to help you reminisce about the days when a potato was there to be enjoyed without question, Ms Diddles.

In those days, chips were referred to as fried potatoes or chipped potatoes, so, ultimately, potatoes to the average person. There's a good chance Donovan would have referred to a tray of chips as potatoes.

I don't recall street vendors around Dorset Street being mentioned in witness statements, so I reckon this food came from a house selling fish and chips out of the front or a chandler shop.

Keeping the ruminating going, in every part of England I've come across they refer to the fish and chip shop as the chip shop or the chippy; here in County Durham, we know it as the fish shop or the fishy. Fancy that, eh!

[GBinOz]

Hi George,

Anyway, it's not definite but if contemporary news reports went with baked tatties, and we know that they were cheap and accessible at that time, that gets my bet.

(I've been doing a no carbs in the pm thing since lockdown, so am probably obsessing a little on this whole baked potato subject. I've been craving one ever since this topic came up! God, I'd kill for one. With cheese. And coleslaw. And loads of butter ...........!!!!)

I'll have mine with sour cream and chives and....Oh no...now look what you've gone and done.

You'd kill for one, but could you eat two or three and still be hungry...or would you be sleepy?

Cheers, George

[GBinOz]

Latter.

Thanks Dave. I stand corrected.

Cheers, George

[Herlock Sholmes]

I posted this on the Richardson thread but it’s more pertinent on here.


Catherine Eddowes was arrested at 8.30pm and put into a cell. Sergeant James Byfield testified that nothing was given to her while she was in the cell. So she couldn't have eaten anything for at least five hours before her death at about 1.40. Yet Dr Brown testified that there was "partly digested farinaceous (starchy) food" in her stomach. That surely proves that food CAN remain in the stomach for more than the three or four hours needed in respect of Annie's starchy potato. So that's the stomach contents point dead in the water.

[GBinOz]

I posted this on the Richardson thread but it’s more pertinent on here.


Catherine Eddowes was arrested at 8.30pm and put into a cell. Sergeant James Byfield testified that nothing was given to her while she was in the cell. So she couldn't have eaten anything for at least five hours before her death at about 1.40. Yet Dr Brown testified that there was "partly digested farinaceous (starchy) food" in her stomach. That surely proves that food CAN remain in the stomach for more than the three or four hours needed in respect of Annie's starchy potato. So that's the stomach contents point dead in the water.

Why couldn't Cathy have eaten between 1am and 1:35am? You came up with plenty of reasons for Annie having eaten again after having had at least two potatoes at about 1:50am, but Cathy wouldn't have been hungry after at least four and a half hours? This is your game over logic?
Didn't you also say that cases cannot be compared unless they are identical?

[Fleetwood Mac]

Why couldn't Cathy have eaten between 1am and 1:35am? You came up with plenty of reasons for Annie having eaten again after having had at least two potatoes at about 1:50am, but Cathy wouldn't have been hungry after at least four and a half hours? This is your game over logic?

Unlikely George.

Meet murderer, decide to get some food, find food, eat it.

I'd say 20 minutes minimum, leaving 20 minutes to fully digest in the stomach.

Sherlock isn't quite quoting the inquest testimony from Dr Brown. More disingenuity, but the good news is: "game over!".

[Fleetwood Mac]

I posted this on the Richardson thread but it’s more pertinent on here.


Yet Dr Brown testified that there was "partly digested farinaceous (starchy) food" in her stomach. That surely proves that food CAN remain in the stomach for more than the three or four hours needed in respect of Annie's starchy potato. So that's the stomach contents point dead in the water.

Are you sure this event took place at the crime scene?

I removed the content of the stomach and placed it in a jar for further examination. There seemed very little in it in the way of food or fluid, but from the cut end partly digested farinaceous food escaped.

Are you sure this isn't an observation from the post-mortem on Sunday afternoon?

[Herlock Sholmes]

Are you sure this event took place at the crime scene?

I removed the content of the stomach and placed it in a jar for further examination. There seemed very little in it in the way of food or fluid, but from the cut end partly digested farinaceous food escaped.

Are you sure this isn't an observation from the post-mortem on Sunday afternoon?

Of course it's an observation from the post-mortem. But it makes no difference. Digestion stops at the point of death, so the amount of partly digested food in the stomach would have been exactly the same at 1.45am as at the time of the post- mortem.

Basically Eddowes had an empty stomach at the time of her death save for a very small amount of partly digested starchy food. How do you explain it?

[Herlock Sholmes]

Why couldn't Cathy have eaten between 1am and 1:35am? You came up with plenty of reasons for Annie having eaten again after having had at least two potatoes at about 1:50am, but Cathy wouldn't have been hungry after at least four and a half hours? This is your game over logic?
Didn't you also say that cases cannot be compared unless they are identical?

Because of the fact that the stomach was empty other than this small amount of unidentifiable partly digested starchy food. It's obviously not recently eaten food.

But it doesn't really matter. If Eddowes could have eaten food unobserved in 40 minutes after leaving the police cell, with no one known to have given or sold it to her, then so could Chapman in over 3 hours.

Either way, it's game over for the stomach contents point.

[Fleetwood Mac]

Of course it's an observation from the post-mortem. But it makes no difference. Digestion stops at the point of death

Absolutely right. So, now that you're here, what does this mean:

There seemed very little in it in the way of food or fluid, but from the cut end partly digested farinaceous food escaped.