Chapman time of death poll

[Herlock Sholmes]

Let it rest in peace!



The Baron

Like you keep repeating the same nonsense about Chapman’s TOD?

The Fact that you believed the nonsense above sums it all up nicely.

[Doctored Whatsit]

It has to be around first light, JtR didn't have night-vision lenses.

[Holmes' Idiot Brother]

40 isn't "old".
Interestingly though, forty is described as "young" elsewhere.

The reason a corpse begins to smell is due to decomposition, the body had not been dead long enough for that.

But keep in mind that since Annie had been literally laid open with her entrails on her shoulders, the body would have cooled significantly faster than, say Liz Stride. Not sure what the temperature or weather was that morning, but the body may have cooled off enough to convince the doctor that she had been dead longer than she was. Just something to consider.

[Herlock Sholmes]

I certainly don’t want to re-start any discussion on Chapman’s ToD because it’s been done to death, but having just seen Patrick S mention former Scotland Yard Detective Steven Keogh on the other thread I thought that I’d post the opinion of someone who has experience of dealing with cases where efforts are made to determine ToD. Phillips as we know relied on the cooling of her body temperature (Algor mortis) to arrive at a ToD which was at variance with the three witnesses. Some have defended Phillips estimation based on the fact that he was there and that he was a competent Doctor.

Keogh talks about this method on page 161 of Murder Investigation Team saying: “…how unreliable a method it is, even when using modern equipment such as digital thermometers or computers.” As far as we know, Phillips only used his hand.

On page 162 he says:” One thing I would be extremely reluctant to do is to rule out a witness’s account based on the estimation of the time of death. I would be even less likely to rule out three witnesses accounts on that basis, especially when the method used to estimate the time of death was body temperature.

Another issue raised about a later ToD has been the risk of him being caught in the act with only one escape route. Keogh says on page 171 about the killer assessing the scene in regard to being disturbed and the consequences of an arrest: “I’m sure he considered this and still felt comfortable being there. In the police, we would call this a ‘dynamic risk assessment:’ identifying hazards or risks and working out how to reduce or eliminate them. Well, his hazard would have been the residents in that house. There is no way he would have let anyone prevent his escape, so I have no doubt they and the risk they posed would have been eliminated.”

And a more general point that I and others have made one or two thousand times:

From page 182: “…but what about discrepancies in the timings of the witnesses? Chronologically, if their timings were correct, the sequence doesn’t work. Albert Cadosch heard things in the backyard of number 29 Hanbury Street before Elizabeth Long saw Annie out the front, almost certainly talking o her killer.Albert says he came down to his yard at 5.20 am, while Elizabeth says her sighting was at 5.30 am. Well,I refer to the very beginning of this book when I spoke about witnesses and the issues with timings. As I said there, even today with all the opportunities we have to allow us to know what the time of day is, witnesses still get it wrong. In 1888, most most people didn’t have clocks, let alone watches. They were reliant on those in public, such as the one described by Mrs Long at the Black Eagle Brewery, or the one heard by John Davis at Spitalfield’s Market. So, we need to take these timings with a pinch of salt and understand they are usually best guesses.”

[Geddy2112]

From page 182: “…but what about discrepancies in the timings of the witnesses? Chronologically, if their timings were correct, the sequence doesn’t work. Albert Cadosch heard things in the backyard of number 29 Hanbury Street before Elizabeth Long saw Annie out the front, almost certainly talking to her killer. Albert says he came down to his yard at 5.20 am, while Elizabeth says her sighting was at 5.30 am. Well,I refer to the very beginning of this book when I spoke about witnesses and the issues with timings. As I said there, even today with all the opportunities we have to allow us to know what the time of day is, witnesses still get it wrong. In 1888, most most people didn’t have clocks, let alone watches. They were reliant on those in public, such as the one described by Mrs Long at the Black Eagle Brewery, or the one heard by John Davis at Spitalfield’s Market. So, we need to take these timings with a pinch of salt and understand they are usually best guesses.”

Was it not suggested that the Elizabeth Long heard the quarter past tolling of the clock as opposed the the half past thus bringing it more inline with Cadosch's toilet visit?

What is your best guess at TOD for Chapman Herlock Sholmes ?

[Herlock Sholmes]

Was it not suggested that the Elizabeth Long heard the quarter past tolling of the clock as opposed the the half past thus bringing it more inline with Cadosch's toilet visit?

What is your best guess at TOD for Chapman Herlock Sholmes ?

Long hearing an earlier clock has been suggested but if you look at the timings of Cadosch and Long you only have to allow them both 5 or 6 minutes either way and they tie up. Cadosch said: “I got up about a quarter past five in the morning, and went into the yard. It was then about twenty minutes past five, I should think.”

So clearly he’s estimating. If we had our own stopwatch going - Long sees the couple at 5.30 (actual time say 5.25) Cadosch gets up at around 5.15 (actual time say 5.20.)

I think that she died around 5.25 (ish)