Chapman time of death poll

[Fleetwood Mac]

Prior to 4:30am.

Rigour may be open to a margin error, but the doctor could draw upon experience.

Long is useless, as by her own admission she didn't take much notice.

Jack's other known victims were night time affairs.

[Bridewell]

Long is useless, as by her own admission she didn't take much notice.

Where does she say she 'didn't take much notice'?

Regards, Bridewell.

[Wickerman]

Thanks Wickerman. I think Mrs. Long said 'over 40' so certainly not a young man, especially in the 19th century.

If you remember the man seen by Mrs Kennedy..

"There was a man - a young man, respectably dressed, and with a dark moustache,..."............."On Wednesday evening, about eight o'clock, me and my sister were in the neighbourhood of Bethnal Green road when we were accosted by a very suspicious man about forty years of age".............."Mrs. Kennedy asserts that the man whom she saw on Friday morning with the woman at the corner of Dorset street resembles very closely the individual who caused such alarm on the night in question,..."

So for Mrs Kennedy to describe "40" as "young" might compel us to ask, how old was Mrs Kennedy?

Sarah Lewis, who saw the same people on Friday morning described the man as follows:

"....he was short, pale faced, with a black small moustache, about 40 years of age..."

Thimbleby described the 'hurrying' man as about 30, but with the same awkward gait as the man Kennedy saw.

Regards, Jon S.

[lynn cates]

gait

Hello Jon. And it was PRECISELY the awkward gait which was deemed the chief characteristic of Leather Apron. (Compare Mrs. Fiddymont's lad.)

Cheers.
LC

[GregBaron]

We're only one clue away...

If you remember the man seen by Mrs Kennedy..

"There was a man - a young man, respectably dressed, and with a dark moustache,..."............."On Wednesday evening, about eight o'clock, me and my sister were in the neighbourhood of Bethnal Green road when we were accosted by a very suspicious man about forty years of age".............."Mrs. Kennedy asserts that the man whom she saw on Friday morning with the woman at the corner of Dorset street resembles very closely the individual who caused such alarm on the night in question,..."

So for Mrs Kennedy to describe "40" as "young" might compel us to ask, how old was Mrs Kennedy?

Sarah Lewis, who saw the same people on Friday morning described the man as follows:

"....he was short, pale faced, with a black small moustache, about 40 years of age..."

Thimbleby described the 'hurrying' man as about 30, but with the same awkward gait as the man Kennedy saw.

Regards, Jon S.

Good stuff Wickerman, I guess this supports the notion that age is relative...

Don't think so. At 4.51 would would see faint traces of light in the eastern sky. As time progressed, it would become lighter and lighter. Finally, around 5.25, one could see the sun upon looking east--provided there were no clouds, buildings, etc. to obstruct its view.

Thanks Lynn, I feel better now...I promise I won't ask about dusk and the gloaming...

"He looked to be over 40" but "she did not see the man's face except to notice that he was dark".

I'm not sure about useless you all but it's curious she can guess an age without seeing the face, must be from clothes or voice I guess...

Richardson was there about 45 minutes before. So, no cadaver.

I got your point now Lynn and I agree...

I think you put it well. If he is a cunning serial killer, he was there long before John was. If, however, he was a delusional lad, trapped in a different world all his own, . . .

Yes Lynn, this question is sort of the case within the case, cunning or clueless........?




Greg

[lynn cates]

In the gloaming, . . .

Hello Greg. Thanks.

"I promise I won't ask about dusk and the gloaming..."

Very well, "O my darling" (heh-heh).

Cheers.
LC

[Wickerman]

Hello Jon. And it was PRECISELY the awkward gait which was deemed the chief characteristic of Leather Apron. (Compare Mrs. Fiddymont's lad.)

Cheers.
LC

Then, help me out here my good fellow...is this Leather Apron?

"The man is described by Mrs. Kennedy as having on a pair of dark mixture trousers and a long dark overcoat. He wore a low crowned brown hat and carried a shiny black bag in his hand. Further, it was stated that he was a man of medium stature, with dark moustache, and that he had an extremely awkward gait, which could at once be recognised."
Evening News, 10 Nov. 1888.

Regards, Jon S.

[lynn cates]

Here, there be rumours.

Hello Jon. Thanks.

As with any rumour, "Leather Apron" has many strands involved in his genesis. I think that Isenschmid, Piser, James, Thimbleby's man and perhaps Richardson's man all contributed to the legend.

Cheers.
LC

[Wickerman]

I took it that Leather Apron was simply a 'moniker' for a man who never existed.

Once they established that Piser could not be the killer, whether he was known as Leather Apron or not became immaterial, then it was replaced in a couple of weeks by 'Jack the Ripper', another name for a man who some say never existed

Regardless, I don't see the man in Fiddymont's story as being able to scrub-up to turn himself out like the 'Britannia man', who seems to cut a gentlemanly cloth.

There must have been more than one man with an awkward gait.
There does appear to be another common detail among a few witnesses, that he had "funny eyes", whatever that is supposed to mean.

Regards, Jon S.

[lynn cates]

The eyes have it.

Hello Jon. Thanks.

Largely agree.

"There must have been more than one man with an awkward gait."

Yes, indeed. Mrs. Fiddymont's man, Piser, Henry James--all had a peculiar gait.

"There does appear to be another common detail among a few witnesses, that he had "funny eyes", whatever that is supposed to mean."

Precisely. That would be the look of ANY wandering lunatic.

Just for jolly, have a go at Isenschmid's photo. See what I mean?

Cheers.
LC

[GregBaron]

Diseased eyes...

Hello Jon. Thanks.


"There does appear to be another common detail among a few witnesses, that he had "funny eyes", whatever that is supposed to mean."

Precisely. That would be the look of ANY wandering lunatic.

Just for jolly, have a go at Isenschmid's photo. See what I mean?

Cheers.
LC

Question gentlemen. I wonder if funny eyes might result from syphilis or some other disease.....?


Greg

[Wickerman]

Precisely. That would be the look of ANY wandering lunatic.

Just for jolly, have a go at Isenschmid's photo. See what I mean?

Cheers.
LC

I think we must allow for the fact that in 'mug' shots taken of anyone arrested, they are not in the best of moods to start with. So yes, they may have a wild-eyed look.
Witnesses noticed this feature when, supposedly, these men were in the process of picking up a female. Worth noting, but we can't read too much into it, unless the suspect had syphilis. In which case they may have suffered from madarosis, a complication where the man loses his eyelashes.

Regards, Jon S.

[lynn cates]

Eye, eye sir.

Hello Greg. Thanks. Whilst anything is possible, the eyes are more likely a sign of some form of dementia.

Cheers.
LC

[lynn cates]

Colney Hatch

Hello Jon. Thanks. Duly noted.

I was thinking about Rob Clack's rogue's gallery from Colney Hatch. Rather frightening to say the least.

Cheers.
LC

[Michael W Richards]

Hi folks,

I think in this case the TOD mystery is solvable. What is still contentious though is how long it takes a body to cool.

I dont believe that Annie was there when Richardson was, as per his statement....so not killed before 4:45ish......and I believe Cadosche likely heard the start of the murder, because he heard a soft female voice. That makes her murder between 5:15 and 5:30...which makes Mrs Long incorrect about, at the very least, the time,.......and means that the body cooled within the time between 5:30 and the first person to touch the dead woman, so,.....approximately 45 minutes.

Considering that the body was in essence an open cavity, and that most if not all the blood had drained from her, that seems reasonable or probable to me.

Best regards