Chapman time of death poll

[GregBaron]

Who you calling old...

40 isn't "old".
Interestingly though, forty is described as "young" elsewhere.

The reason a corpse begins to smell is due to decomposition, the body had not been dead long enough for that.

Thanks Wickerman. I think Mrs. Long said 'over 40' so certainly not a young man, especially in the 19th century.

You may be right about decomposition but of course the intestines might have had an unpleasant smell, it's all quite a puzzle for sure...


Greg

[lynn cates]

answers

Hello Greg.

"First off, can someone tell me the difference between dawn and sunrise?"

Dawn is when it first becomes noticeable that the sky is no longer black--it is beginning to get light. Sunrise is when the sun first "comes up."

"Secondly, what does someone seeing a young man run off have to do with Mrs. Long's sighting of an old man?"

Old man?

"who thinks it likely that Richardson would have been overwhelmed by the smell of an eviscerated corpse a couple of feet to his left?"

I found out that a newly opened corpse does not have a strong smell. (See my Isenschmid piece in "Rip 125.")

"I also agree with those who find Richardson less than a reliable witness."

Indeed! I think the issue is WOULD he have seen Annie had he looked. My current answer, "No."

Cheers.
LC

[GregBaron]

Dawn of the Dead...

Thanks for your replies Lynn. Now let me further muddy the waters...

Dawn is when it first becomes noticeable that the sky is no longer black--it is beginning to get light. Sunrise is when the sun first "comes up."

That's all well and good Lynn, but it seems that Mr. Woods' times should be reversed then, doesn't it?

Dawn: 04.51 A.M.
Sunrise: 05.25 A.M.

Old man?

We've had this discussion before, let's just say he wasn't young by any stretch....

I found out that a newly opened corpse does not have a strong smell.

I can live with this and yes I did read your JI article....a lovely one it was...

Indeed! I think the issue is WOULD he have seen Annie had he looked. My current answer, "No."

This also confuses me Lynn, if you believe the murder occurred at 5:30 and going by our times and dawn/sunrise discussion, there would certainly be some light at that time. So in this light and looking down a couple of feet to one's left, nothing would be visible?


Please enlighten me...


Greg

[RavenDarkendale]

Problem:

The place she died is long gone, so we really have little idea of how risky it really was for JtR to kill Chapman there at the canonical time. How shadowy was it, what could he have used for cover, could he have perhaps left the yard over a fence or something, was there a place he could hide until he could slip out unnoticed? These questions being unlikely to be answered, there is no real reason to argue with the time stated by investigators on the spot.

God Bless

Darkendale

[GregBaron]

Brain malfunction...

Good points Dark one but I'm not sure all the investigators agreed.

I must apologize Lynn, I had a bit of a brain aneurysm, I forgot what time Richardson claimed to be in the yard. With that in mind, I agree that in that darkness, even if he looked that way, he may not have seen or smelled anything unusual...

Of course the issue is whether the ripper would have ripped in the dawn light, I know your JI answer to this. It seems this time-frame would be different than all the other murders in question, of course whether this is significant or not is debatable.

If the Ripper is a clever one he probably ripped at 3:30 in the morning. If a delusional schizophrenic, a dawn ripping comes into play...


My confusion persists...


Greg

[Bridewell]

Sunrise

I think Mrs. Long said 'over 40' so certainly not a young man, especially in the 19th century.

"He looked to be over 40" but "she did not see the man's face except to notice that he was dark".

I think her estimate of the man's age has to be treated with caution in the circumstances..

As for the poll, the more logical time to kill would be during the hours of darkness. Having said that, the killer didn't choose logical places, so what reason is there to suppose that he chose logical times? I, too, think the TOD was at or about 5.30am.

Regards, Bridewell.

[lynn cates]

answers, part 2

Hello Greg. Thanks.

"That's all well and good Lynn, but it seems that Mr. Woods' times should be reversed then, doesn't it?

Dawn: 04.51 A.M.
Sunrise: 05.25 A.M."

Don't think so. At 4.51 would would see faint traces of light in the eastern sky. As time progressed, it would become lighter and lighter. Finally, around 5.25, one could see the sun upon looking east--provided there were no clouds, buildings, etc. to obstruct its view.

"I can live with this and yes I did read your JI article....a lovely one it was..."

Thank you.

"This also confuses me Lynn, if you believe the murder occurred at 5:30 and going by our times and dawn/sunrise discussion, there would certainly be some light at that time. So in this light and looking down a couple of feet to one's left, nothing would be visible?"

Richardson was there about 45 minutes before. So, no cadaver.

Cheers.
LC

[lynn cates]

back yard

Hello Raven.

"we really have little idea of how risky it really was for JtR to kill Chapman there at the canonical time."

People were prone to pop out the back door at any time. Moreover, the area had several windows looking down towards it.

"How shadowy was it . . . ?"

It was daylight.

"what could he have used for cover . . . ?"

The leather apron under the tap?

"could he have perhaps left the yard over a fence or something . . . ?"

If he were remarkably agile--and didn't break the fence.

"was there a place he could hide until he could slip out unnoticed?"

No.

Cheers.
LC

[lynn cates]

2 scenarios

Hello Greg. Thanks. Not a problem.

I think you put it well. If he is a cunning serial killer, he was there long before John was. If, however, he was a delusional lad, trapped in a different world all his own, . . .

Cheers.
LC

[lynn cates]

illogical

Hello Colin.

"the more logical time to kill would be during the hours of darkness. Having said that, the killer didn't choose logical places, so what reason is there to suppose that he chose logical times?"

Thanks--this helps me make a point.

Cheers.
LC

[Bridewell]

"How shadowy was it . . . ?"

It was daylight.

Hi Lynn,

Isn't it daylight which casts the shadows? You can't have shadows without a light source, can you?

Regards, Bridewell.

[lynn cates]

I object

Hello Colin. Thanks.

Indeed. One needs the light--not to mention an object to cast the shadow. What objects were there?

Cheers.
LC

[Bridewell]

Hello Colin. Thanks.

Indeed. One needs the light--not to mention an object to cast the shadow. What objects were there?

Cheers.
LC

Where Chapman was found? A fence. A building. Steps.

Regards, Bridewell.

[Bridewell]

Thanks--this helps me make a point.

Glad to have been of assistance.

Regards, Bridewell.

[lynn cates]

Hanbury

Hello Colin. Thanks.

If I recall properly, Hanbury was located in a general east-west orientation. The event was about equinox (within 3 weeks), so I suppose the sun was fairly eastward positioned as it arose. Hence, the fence would have provided any shadows thrown upon Annie that morning.

Cheers.
LC