Who Knew About 29 Hanbury Street?

[Rubyretro]

The guy was undoubtedly cunning, incredibly lucky and certainly knew the rhythms of the neighborhood....

Totally agree, Greg..."knew the rhythms of the neighbourhood" is really something that puts suspects like 'Tumblety' or 'Druitt' or an elusive 'Astrakhan Man' out of my mind.

I think that we're dealing with someone who would pass unremarkably in the passage of Hanbury Street, or doss on the stairs to case the joint, without seeming in the least bit out of place.

[GregBaron]

Trail..........

I agree with both of you Ruby and Chava as well...

The lack of a trail of blood evidence is remarkable to me as well as no witnesses seeing anyone leaving the scene of a crime.....I wish I believed in vampires......!

I don't suspect the ones you mentioned either Ruby for that and other reasons..........

I don't quite get the doss thing.....? Does that mean guys(and girls) laid(lay? lied?) around on people's steps and doorways to sleep until they came up with doss money? And that JtR might have done just that? Wow.......yet no one mentions any suspicious dosser or loiterer................


Greg

[Adam Went]

Some good thoughts being floated around.....the idea of him jumping the fence in order to escape has been suggested before. It wouldn't have been too difficult if he was reasonably athletic, as the fence was only around 5 feet high.

Also, yes, many of the doors to such buildings were left unlocked of a night because it was simply easier for the tenants to come and go when they needed to - locked doors would have been something of a hassle and in an area like Spitalfields, probably wouldn't have lasted very long either!

Cheers,
Adam.

[Barnaby]

I also believe the Ripper let his victims choose the spot for the "business" , so they wouldn't get suspicious if he tried to get them into a secluded place (especially in the later cases). That would mean that he didn't know the spot and wouldn't have any ties to it.

Addy

I believe that this is the general consensus. But what a risk this guy was taking if he was walking into these place truly "blind"! An unacceptable risk in my opinion. The fact that he seems to disappear into thin air suggests to me that, though the victims led, he had a firm grasp of not just the general area but specifics regarding the sites.

[Addy]

Hi Barnaby,

Definitely, I doubt the Ripper would do these things in a neighbourhood that he wasn't familiar with. I guess the risk-taking was part of the "thrill" but he would not have risked capture.

He probably searched for victims in the areas he was most familiar with.

Greetings,

Addy

[Mitch Rowe]

You're probably right Mitch although I'm not sure what you mean by if Annie took him there he'd be caught for sure.....

I don't know what the back of Hanbury looks like or where it led to?

As someone pointed out no blood in the hallway shows a great degree of caution and Ben has an 'he took his coat off' hypothesis..........interesting..

The guy was undoubtedly cunning, incredibly lucky and certainly knew the rhythms of the neighborhood....

Greg

The back yards of those buildings were a maze of fences and walls and little brick outbuildings. Im not even sure there was a way out from there. Add the fact that there could be junk laying around or even a dog or two it seems that unless a person had already explored those areas before the chance that JTR being detected being his first time through those yards is very great.

Now on the other hand.. If JTR walks out the same way he came in he is free in seconds. He already knows whats in front of him. He only has a few people to worry about because once he is on the street he's home free.

[Hunter]

This killer risked capture at every murder site... unprecedented... when one examines others who at least took far less of a chance by killing in their own home or in some isolated or remote location.

It was a paradox of sorts... find the most vulnerable victim, but kill them in a public place.

I tend to agree that this man was local. Not only because of the small area the murders encompassed but a man from another area or of better means could have killed prostitutes in the West End that had better means of providing privacy... thus less risk, and more time for his demented fantasy... Got lucky with Kelly, I reckon... but that may just prove the point.

[Rubyretro]

yes, Mitch, I also think that he was able to coolly stroll out through the passage and melt back into the crowd scene.

Still, he doesn't seem like a mentally out of control, hot headed, spur-of-the- moment type of character to me. He might have enjoyed the adrenalin rush of taking a huge risk -but I bet that it was a considered risk and he thought that he'd either be able to kill anyone who suprised him, or knew that he could escape over the back fence if he was trapped in the yard (no telephones for anyone to warn the street behind of course).

[Chava]

His biggest problem would be someone coming out of the house into the backyard while he was busy with his victim. If that happens, and if the person using the privy is large and male, he's got a problem. Hell, if she's large and female he's got a problem. All it needs is one screech of 'Ripper!!!!!' and the whole house would have come running. And he would have been caught like a rat in a trap. So either (1) he thought he could take care of anyone who came through the door before they even realized he was there. Or (2) he knew that people in general didn't use the privy that early. Don't forget that chamber pots would have been used in the rooms. People would not have gone outside to the privy in the night or early morning unless they were ill--as Cadoche was.

Either way it was a risk, and I believe a fairly calculated one. And again there are resemblances to events at Millers Court. Where, if Hervey or even Barnett had felt like paying a late-night call, he would be toast. I believe it's possible he was a bit more careful about victim and location selection than previously advertised. He may well have done some stalking as well as some on-the-spot stuff. It's possible he stalked and/or chatted-up Chapmen and got her to where he wanted her. Or maybe he chose the location first and waited for some juicy victim to swim up.

[lynn cates]

disoriented

Hello Chava. Another possibility is that Annie's assailant was a violent lunatic who was so disoriented that he failed to grasp the danger.

I wonder if a cry of "Leather Apron!" would have brought help quicker than one of "The Ripper!"?

Cheers.
LC

[GregBaron]

Escape route.........

I agree with Ruby that if trapped like a rat in the corner he may have
bailed over the back fence to a preconceived escape route but perhaps he
didn't think that far ahead or wasn't athletic enough to pull it off....

I also agree with Ruby that the thrill is a huge part of the overall process...
danger is thrilling and these types have a low thrill threshold meaning they
need increasingly dangerous situations to receive the necessary rush.....

Let's not forget possibility #3.....the accomplice who stands in the hallway...
in front of Miller's court.....at the beginning of Buck's row.....at the Nelson
on Berner Street........in St. James passage at Mitre Square........I know how
crank and conspiratorial this idea is but it helps explain the phantom escapes...

But of course this begs the question what does the accomplice do when someone is
coming down the hall at Hanbury for example......."Um sorry sir, uh, my friend is
in the backyard performing a ????????????"


Greg

[Hunter]

Serial Killers with an accomplice are quite rare but not impossible. Henry Lucas had one by the name of Ottis Toole, who's IQ was 75.

I wonder if a cry of "Leather Apron!" would have brought help quicker than one of "The Ripper!"?

Yes, for obvious reasons.

[GregBaron]

Double Trouble............

I believe there was some dispute about the claims of Henry Lucas but your point is well taken Hunter. There have been a handful of cases of 2 persons perpetrating serial murders.......recently there have been a few cases of a man basically with a women under his thumb and I'm not sure but it might have been the Hillside Strangler or one of those California cases where 2 guys were kidnapping, torturing and murdering.....not unprecedented so like everything else about the ripper case, it can't be ruled out.......not yet at least.........

Greg

[The Snapper]

Absence pf blood in the hallway ....

I believe strangulation preceded his butchery. With the heart no longer beating the blood presssure would rapidly drop and make it easier to avoid or at least limit his exposure as he did his work.

[dixon9]

problem we have though with that snapper is,he was delving about in Anne's insides and took some of her body parts,so surely his hands would have been soiled?

Dixon9
Still learning