Who Knew About 29 Hanbury Street?

[Chava]

Annie Chapman's murder was the only one that took place in a private space not belonging to a victim. Nicholls was killed in the street. Stride was killed in an openly-accessed commercial premise's yard. Eddowes was killed in the street. MJK was killed in her own room.

But Chapman was killed in the backyard of a house that didn't belong to her. And my question is: how did she or her killer know that access could be gained to that backyard. And why did they have any expectation of privacy there? At the inquest the Richardsons admitted that they had seen people in the house and John Richardson agreed that people went through to the backyard. But he never says he saw the victim doing this before. It's not at all unlikely that Chapman knew she could take punters round the backyard at #29 for business. But it's never mentioned that she did. And Davies who testifies first at the inquest says this:

The house faces Hanbury-street, with one window on the ground floor and a front door at the side leading into a passage which runs through into the yard. There is a back door at the end of this passage opening into the yard. Neither of the doors was able to be locked, and I have never seen them locked. Any one who knows where the latch of the front door is could open it and go along the passage into the back yard.

The thing is, I don't know what he means by 'any one who knows where the latch of the front door is...' because that suggests an arrangement a bit like MJK's 'bolted' door which could be easily unbolted if you know the trick. It's a small thing, but it suggests that someone had knowledge of a door that may have seemed locked to a casual observer, and that someone may not have been the victim. No one reports seeing her in the neighbourhood before. Which means that--in my mind!--it's possible that the Ripper had ties to #29. Perhaps had lodged there himself. Knew the rhythms of the house. Knew the timetables of the lodgers. Knew about the easy-to-open front door. Which makes that two doors he knew about that were easy to open...

[Addy]

Hi Chava,

I've read in a couple of books that prostitutes often took customers into the backyard of 29 Hanbury street. People were also often found in the passageway, staying there for the night because they didn't have the money for a lodging house. It was one of the reasons why Mrs Richardson's son used to come in whenever he passed by.

I can imagine that Annie, having to earn her bed every night, knew about the spots in the neighbourhood where she could take her clients. I also believe the Ripper let his victims choose the spot for the "business" , so they wouldn't get suspicious if he tried to get them into a secluded place (especially in the later cases). That would mean that he didn't know the spot and wouldn't have any ties to it.

Greetings,

Addy

[Chava]

Thanks Addy. But no one reported Chapman as one of the girls local to that area. Then as now prostitutes would have had their strolls and their locations. I just wonder who, while walking down Hanbury Street, propositioned whom? It's as possible that the Ripper stopped Chapman rather than Chapman stopping the Ripper. Especially if he saw someone he 'liked' walking past a location he knew. Heaven-sent opportunity.

[Addy]

Hi Chava,

That's true but we have no idea of how well Annie knew the area. And the Ripper could have accosted her and still let her choose the site. But it is still a nice theory. It could be interesting to know who previous lodger of 29 Hanbury had been. Although many lodgers were there for a while already.

Greetings,

Addy

[Harry the Hawker]

There's James Hardiman for one (http://www.casebook.org/ripper_media...orley/79.html). And his younger brother, William, I believe.

[Brenda]

.

If anyone has the time to muddle their way through all the posts, there are some astounding photographs somewhere in the "East End Photographs and Drawings" thread of the inside layout of another house on Hanbury Street that was apparently similar if not identical in layout to #29. It is absolutely incredible to me how the residents of #29 could sleep at night knowing that strangers were passing through. Whenever I saw the word "passage", my mind's eye had conjured up some tiny little hallway that could be shut off from the main part of the house. Not true. People who came in there were very much "in the house". I hope the residents could lock their bedroom doors!

[Scott Nelson]

...it's possible that the Ripper had ties to #29. Perhaps had lodged there himself. Knew the rhythms of the house. Knew the timetables of the lodgers.

Yes. He was likely the man seen sleeping on the stairs by Mrs. Richardson or another lodger a month before the murder...he was waiting "to do a doss" or some such verbiage as reported by the witness who had a short conversation with him. Also, he had been seen sleeping on the stairs on other nights as well.

[Adam Went]

It was probably more just a case of taking the client to the nearest safe point to "do business" as possible, and if that was the backyard of 29 Hanbury, so be it. Annie was the oldest of the Ripper victims and so was probably what you might call "a wily old fox" and knew better where and how to avoid detection.

In any case, it could have been Jack who pointed out the backyard....the piece of conversation Mrs. Long overheard, "Will you?", might even suggest as much.

Cheers,
Adam.

[Chava]

It was probably more just a case of taking the client to the nearest safe point to "do business" as possible, and if that was the backyard of 29 Hanbury, so be it. Annie was the oldest of the Ripper victims and so was probably what you might call "a wily old fox" and knew better where and how to avoid detection.

In any case, it could have been Jack who pointed out the backyard....the piece of conversation Mrs. Long overheard, "Will you?", might even suggest as much.

Cheers,
Adam.

I agree with this. If Long is correct in her identification it sounds like the Ripper who propositioned Chapman rather than the other way around. And he may well have suggested the backyard at #29.

[Rubyretro]

I agree with this. If Long is correct in her identification it sounds like the Ripper who propositioned Chapman rather than the other way around. And he may well have suggested the backyard at

#29.

I agree with this.

At any rate, prostitutes working Hanbury Street must have all used the same backyards. Jack could have observed them in the past, checked the yards out, and knew where he would be taken, and how quiet it was there.
Maybe he had dossed on the stairs before ?

[dixon9]

not sure wether this will help but my family are from the east end,i would say growing up there in the 60's most houses were left unlocked at night even then.
My family then moved out in late 60s and my father still left his back door open at night right up till he died in the late 90s.Always questioned my father on this,he told me it was a tradition and if you cant trust your own who can you trust(btw i leave my back door open now,unless away over night)
Now back to the thread,maybe it was just a case of they were there and they tried the first 'back door' they came across.

Sorry for being long winded,but i hope you get my point.lol

Dixon9
Still learning

[GregBaron]

Narrow passage.....

If you see the photos from the Whitby collection it's
amazing how narrow the passage to the back of 29 Hanbury.
There's a staircase to walk around also....creepy to me
to think strangers are using your hallway at night..
Suppose you get up to use the loo and some punter or
drunkard or whatever is staggering thru...very unappealing...
It seems so risky I still wonder if JtR jumped the back
fence to escape the area?

Greg

[Mitch Rowe]

It seems so risky I still wonder if JtR jumped the back fence to escape the area?Greg

Naw.. He would have been caught or seen. The best way was right back where he came from. Annie probably led him there anyway. So if thats the case then he would have been caught for sure.

[GregBaron]

Passage Exit...........

You're probably right Mitch although I'm not sure what you mean by if Annie took him there he'd be caught for sure.....

I don't know what the back of Hanbury looks like or where it led to?

As someone pointed out no blood in the hallway shows a great degree of caution and Ben has an 'he took his coat off' hypothesis..........interesting..

The guy was undoubtedly cunning, incredibly lucky and certainly knew the rhythms of the neighborhood....

Greg

[Chava]

I agree. I think he did know the neighbourhood. I think there's a pretty good chance he was local to it, which Annie Chapman was not. She lived further away.

I've always wondered about the lack of blood trace. You'd think he'd drop a spot or three after the murders he'd committed, especially MJK. But you never hear anything about bloody footprints, or blood drops or whatever. In the MJK murder, I think it's a good bet he removed his clothes and shoes and left them far away from the bed. But even so, he's got to get from the bed to his stuff, and there's no suggestion of any trace on the way. In Chapman's case, he could have effected everything while leaning over her at her side or in front of her between her legs. She was already dead and he didn't do nearly as much as he did in Eddowes of MJK, so may have been able to avoid getting too much on him. However he was leaving with a nice drippy souvenir! I'm certain he came prepared for that and had a handy little oilcloth receptacle or whatever... Of course in Eddowes, he cut off a piece of apron. But the trace on that cloth suggests to me he cut himself and used it as a bandage rather than as a handiwipe.