AC and TOD

[Mitch Rowe]

Report Forged?

If thats the Case then its much more likely Bonds report is forged than there is a copy-cat killer.

[lynn cates]

forgery

Hello Mitch. In that case, I would dismiss forgery. To my puny mind, forgery becomes a motive ONLY in cases of financial gain (or something of that sort). I do not see any financial gain involved here.

But I do get a niggling sense of someone mutilating a human body and wondering, "Now, how did that go again? Am I to cut this part out? Oops, I believe there were facial mutilations in the last case. Mustn't forget those. Now, which organs am I to take?"

Of course, nothing approaching a well person could do that. That is why I have wondered (sometimes aloud) whether the chap responsible for MJK's death could be suffering from something like a temporal lobe disorder.

But perhaps we can do no better than advert to Sir MM's thesis about mental deterioration and increased violence.

The best.
LC

[KatBradshaw]

The issue of giving up.

You have discussed what would Annie be doing and if she would be bothering to carry on looking for business by this time (5.30). If Annie did not have the money for her bed, then she can't have had money for much else either. Where was she to go? How was she to try to feed herself. Most places, eating establishments, pubs, lodging houses, expected you to spend whilst there. I am guessing she was hoping for someone for her to make some money out of. Poor Annie, didn't find someone to give her the money.

[lynn cates]

sleepy

Hello Kat. So then, far from giving up, she merely changed her reason for soliciting?

I suppose that, by the putative 5:30, she was barely awake.

The best.
LC

[KatBradshaw]

Yes I think so.
But also, if she couldn't pay for her bed then what could she pay for. She is describbed as not being well fed so maybe it was merely desperation for a client and some food that kept her out so long.
As well as this didn't some of the lodging houses shut their doors after a certain point?

[Sam Flynn]

Why did no-one see Annie wandering the streets from the time she left the lodgings till the time she was murdered?

Hi M&P,

A few factors to bear in mind:

a) People were only just getting up for work when her body was discovered, and an overwhelming majority of potential witnesses would have been in bed during the hours of Annie's wanderings;

b) Of the few who were still out and about, not many - if any - would have known her personally, or even vaguely, even if they'd seen her. It was that kind of neighbourhood;

c) Of those who might have been in a position to see her, she may as well have been yet another vagrant kicked out for not having her doss - and not particularly memorable for that very reason;

d) It's possible that some might have seen her but did not come forward; or did come forward, only for their testimony not to be recorded for posterity or otherwise lost.

[perrymason]

Yes I think so.
But also, if she couldn't pay for her bed then what could she pay for. She is describbed as not being well fed so maybe it was merely desperation for a client and some food that kept her out so long.
As well as this didn't some of the lodging houses shut their doors after a certain point?

On the above....I think its also good to bear in mind Kat that we have testimony that on a few occasions people were found sleeping out in that backyard as I recall.

What time Annie entered that yard is a really good question, and whether she was possibly alone is another.

My best regards

[lynn cates]

stealth ripper

Hello Mike. Missed this one.

Excellent point. What if Jack were ALREADY in the yard? Same with Liz (stable); same with the rest.

This might imply a stealth Ripper--which is an altogether new approach, but entirely possible.

The best.
LC

[perrymason]

Hello Mike. Missed this one.

Excellent point. What if Jack were ALREADY in the yard? Same with Liz (stable); same with the rest.

This might imply a stealth Ripper--which is an altogether new approach, but entirely possible.

The best.
LC

Not that Im pitching any theories here Lynn....but the privy in the yard of number 29 Hanbury had a broken lock on it. Annie might have been taken by surprise when she remained in the yard after an encounter with a real client.

Im not so sure that a "stealth Ripper" as you put it isnt a warranted consideration in the first 2 murders actually. I could see in both cases where a pounce might have done the trick, ....say for example the killer follows Polly ducking in doorways when needed, or accessing lanes that will put him ahead of her.....until he can get close enough to "pounce"....she was drunk after all.....and in the case at Hanbury, he may have watched a client go in with her and only the client leaving....or he might have waited in the yard in the privy knowing prostitutes used that yard.

Ive often wondered if anything about Annies physiological makeup or medical history made her female reproductive organs unusual in anyway. If the woman herself was the target....or the uterus extracted from any woman was.

Cheers mate

[lynn cates]

different approach

Hello Mike. Excellent observation. How ironic if Jack never approached a single client!

I think a scenario could be devised for each of the C5, but with Kate's being the most difficult. I suppose one could claim Lawende did not see Kate, that she was already inside Mitre square at the time. On this scenario, perhaps Jack was hiding inside one of the empty houses.

Notice one consequence of all this is to eliminate the necessity of the ripper appearing normal and gaining women's confidence. And so those who were completely mentally dissociated need not, on that account, be eliminated as suspects.

Hence, one of my difficulties with Nathan Kaminski would vanish.

The best.
LC

[perrymason]

Hello Mike. Excellent observation. How ironic if Jack never approached a single client!

I think a scenario could be devised for each of the C5, but with Kate's being the most difficult. I suppose one could claim Lawende did not see Kate, that she was already inside Mitre square at the time. On this scenario, perhaps Jack was hiding inside one of the empty houses.

Notice one consequence of all this is to eliminate the necessity of the ripper appearing normal and gaining women's confidence. And so those who were completely mentally dissociated need not, on that account, be eliminated as suspects.

Hence, one of my difficulties with Nathan Kaminski would vanish.

The best.
LC

In the case of Kate Eddowes, Sailor Man may just be the man she meets that sends her into the square to meet the man who requested the meeting with her,...in which case there still could be a "pounce" factor ....although as I said, Im not promoting any theory like Jack didnt pick up his prey but ambushed them instead...just pointing out how that conjecture holds some valid concepts.

All the best LC

[richardnunweek]

Hi Michael,
The pounce factor I suggested on Casebook many years ago, but only in respect of Chapman, and Eddowes, but looking at it now ,I can see it may have been used in all the case that may have been contributed as Ripper murders.
Tabram may well have been seen entering George yard with a client, and the killer waited until he left, and entered the building finding Tabram sitting on the landing.
The killer could have followed Nichols entering Brady street, and closed on her near the stablegate in Bucks Row.
Chapman could have been observed entering the passage with the man Mrs Long described, and the killer made his move when her client returned to Hanbury street, finding Annie in the yard composing herself.
The killer may have made his move after BS had assaulted stride, and left the scene, or mayby BS was the killer, and walked towards Dutfields yard, when he observed Liz exit the yard, mayby she had just serviced a client, and the cashous were being used as a medicine [ if you get my meaning].
In Eddowes case, I have always believed she was rejecting a seamans advances , when Lawende and co saw her, and after she refused [ note hand on chest] she walked alone into Mitre square, and was grapped by the left hand and pulled into the darkness of the corner[ note the bruise of recent origin][ by someone either in the square watching the couple or close to church passage, that followed her in.
And last but not least, and I hate admitting that it may put Hutchinson in the frame, it is not impossible that he/someone waited until Astracan had left , before visiting the room, naturally I would have to place someone in CAPITALS.
So yes we could have the ambush type, a man that got his kicks on ambushing women of that class , who had just performed a sexual act..
Regards Richard,
I have never considered before that Stride had actually been in the yard with someone before she was attacked, it might fit the scenerio perfectly.

[curious]

ambushcade

Actually, we've been discussing an ambush here for awhile now. or ambushcade as Tumblety called it.

that's the only possible explanation for Tumblety ever being a suspect in my opinion -- and apparently he was.

Even when reading Fisherman's explanation of Stride's murder (which seemed very reasonable to me) still in the back of my mind was the feeling that Stride had no idea anyone else was around.

That way, it's possible the Ripper was never even seen by a witness.

Curious

[lynn cates]

Gestalt switch

Hello Mike. Your dictum:

"just pointing out how that conjecture holds some valid concepts"

is sufficient.

This whole notion may provide a welcome Gestalt switch on the mechanics of Jack.

The best.
LC

[perrymason]

Thanks for the support posts and comments folks.

When I mentioned that there was a privy with a broken lock in the Hanbury backyard, I should also have mentioned that there was a broken lock on the door to the office that was located above the unused stables, at the rear of Dutfields Yard.

2 broken locks do not a theory make, I know ....but they do show us that there were spots here and there that he could have waited in....I would imagine with the abandoned and empty housing in Mitre Square, a spot might have been secured there possibly. In the case of Dorset Street, we do have the alcove with the large dust bin in it opposite Marys windows....could someone hide behind that? Maybe.

Im not saying we should consider this for all the Canonicals, just seeing if any suggest that he could not have attacked from a place of hiding.

But one thing would be addressed if we did......we would not need to see any matching Ripper suspects by any of the witnesses to help tie the murders by the killer, because he wouldnt have been seen with any of them.

Best regards all