Chapman's Death

[lynn cates]

Richardson

Hello Chava. I see what you mean. Imagine what SY thought when they discovered he possessed not only a knife but also a leather apron!

The best.
LC

[perrymason]

Just wanted to weigh in on the possibility that if Richardson told the truth Annie might still have been there....I think based on her heads distance from the left side of the first step, or right side as you look at it from the back, he could not have missed seeing the body in my opinion.

I think if he told the truth, his evidence suggests that Annie had not yet been in the yard.

Best regards all.

[lynn cates]

conditional

Hello Mike. I completely agree with your conditional proposition. If he is telling the truth, he could not have missed her.

The best.
LC

[perrymason]

Hello Mike. I completely agree with your conditional proposition. If he is telling the truth, he could not have missed her.

The best.
LC

I had read your previous thoughts on this so I didnt want to assert anything without being able to prove it Lynn....thats why its a measured remark.

Cheers mate

[lynn cates]

witness

Hello Mike. Thanks. It is well spoken.

In my poor mind, I regard Richardson on a piece with Packer and Hutchinson.

The best.
LC

[Mitch Rowe]

Its possible JTR could have covered ACs body with a blanket and then removed the blanket later on. Therefore She could have died much earlier and Richardson may not have seen or smelled anything. I know it sounds almost an impossibility but without proper fiber evidence to the contrary it is possible. I wouldnt lock myself in to a TOD for AC unless I were absolutely sure. Of wich I am not.

[curious]

timing on Rigor Mortis

Hello Chris.

"And on top of that there are a lot of other sources of uncertainty - the accuracy of Phillips's assessment of temperature by touch, the influence of air temperature, the contribution of cooling by conduction because the body was lying on the ground, the fact that the body had been disembowelled and lost a lot of blood, and so on."

All true, as Phillips admits.

However, consider:

1. Other doctors with similar post mortem skills faced the same obstacles in their assessments.

2. The air temperature varied 1 degree F (as I recall) from the day Kate was killed.

3. Kate and Polly were both lying on the ground.

4. Kate had been disembowelled as well.

5. All of the C5 had lost a good deal of blood.

Yet we are to suppose that Annie cooled MUCH more rapidly?

"On this basis I really think it would have been quite out of the question for the margin of error of Phillips's estimate to be less than an hour."

Quite possibly so. Which, statistically speaking, means that it could have been 1 HOUR EARLIER than his 4-4:30.

The best.
LC

Another tool to determine time of death is rigor mortis, which was just beginning to commence at 6:30 a.m., according to Phillips' examination of the body.

Dr. George Bagster Phillips describes the body of Annie Chapman as he saw it at 6:30 AM in the back yard of the house at 29 Hanbury Street. This is inquest testimony.

the stiffness of the limbs was not marked, but was evidently commencing.

www.ehow.com discusses rigor mortis:
If it (the body) is prostrate and moderately to very stiff, this is rigor mortis, a contraction of the muscles that begins about two hours after death, lasting up to 18 hours before the condition reverses itself as the body begins to decompose.

www.answers.com discusses how temperature affects rigor:

Temperature is an important factor in determining the time of onset of rigor. In normal circumstances and at room temperature rigor is complete in about three to six hours. If the temperature is higher the onset is more rapid — perhaps no more than an hour in tropical temperatures. Conversely, the onset of rigor is delayed at low temperatures. In cases of drowning in cold water, for example, rigor may not appear until the body has been removed from the water, even after several days of immersion. The onset of rigor is hastened if there has been intense physical activity shortly before death. Thus, in forensic medical practice, the presence of rigor is a poor determinant of the time of death. Once established, the duration of rigor ranges from 18 to 36 hours.

Following the medical exam, Phillips noted (and if she died at 5:30, it's likely no rigor would have been apparent, but instead:

“The stiffness of the limbs was now well marked.”

I’ve found a variety of times that rigor mortis commences to set in – two to six hours is the widest variance with 4 hours being the most normally mentioned time that I’ve found.

So, since eye-witness testimony is normally considered much less reliable than forensic, I'm of the opinion that Annie Chapman must have been killed prior to 4:30, and the eye-witness testimony is simply wrong.

Thoughts?

curious

[lynn cates]

Hello Curious. Well done. I cannot believe otherwise than that she met a demise earlier than 5:30.

The best.
LC

[lynn cates]

new one

Hello Mitch. I never thought about that. Of course, one might wonder about motivation for doing that.

The best.
LC

[Chris]

Thus, in forensic medical practice, the presence of rigor is a poor determinant of the time of death.

Indeed - which is perhaps why Phillips evidently based his estimate of the time of death on body temperature, not the presence of rigor.

One other possibility to throw into the mix is cadaveric spasm, in which the muscles stiffen instantaneously at the time of death.

[lynn cates]

cadaveric spasm

Hello Chris. That possibility cannot be completely discounted.

I wonder if that were a factor in any of the other C5?

The best.
LC

[curious]

Indeed - which is perhaps why Phillips evidently based his estimate of the time of death on body temperature, not the presence of rigor.

One other possibility to throw into the mix is cadaveric spasm, in which the muscles stiffen instantaneously at the time of death.

Chris,

The muscles had NOT stiffened instantaneously. The arm had been placed across the body. The doctor could apparently move the limbs and make the examination.

According to the testimony, stiffening was just beginning and progressed throughout the medical examination.

From the research, it appears to me that rigor NEVER commences in less than two hours following death, but may commence much later than that because of variables -- that still makes Chapman's death prior to 4:30.

And cadaveric spasm, from what I've read, occurs when the body is caught in a strange position and “frozen” there in the case of a violent death.

I quote www.ehow.com

on distinguishing rigor mortis from cadaveric spasm

“Note the position of the body. If it is prostrate and moderately to very stiff, this is rigor mortis, a contraction of the muscles that begins about two hours after death, lasting up to 18 hours before the condition reverses itself as the body begins to decompose.
If you find that the body is frozen in a sitting position, kneeling, reaching, etc., this is an instantaneous cadaveric spasm that occurs under very violent death circumstances. The positioning of the body will tell you what was happening to the victim at the moment of a traumatic death.”

But it’s not just the because Chapman was prone, that I believe it was rigor.

But because the body was just commencing to stiffen when the examiner arrived (rigor starts in the facial muscles and hands, according to what I’ve read) and the stiffening continued to progress during the medical examination, it appears to me that it must have been rigor – which doesn’t commence earlier than two hours, but may not begin for 6 – or even until after being removed from icy water hours after death.

The onset of rigor is why it is not often used to determine death. BUT it is ALWAYS longer than two hours to commence.

HOWEVER, taken with the body temperature, in this case, the doctor had to be right – the two medical facts work together and say to me that Chapman had been dead longer than 2 hours.

The eye witnesses are explainable:
Elizabeth Long’s memory was formed after she heard of the death. She was on her way to work, not paying attention for nothing unusual happened. It was only after the fact that her mind told her she had seen the victim, right at the house where Chapman was killed. Perhaps she saw another couple. Perhaps she had seen the victim other times . . . . But not at 5:30 a.m. the morning of the murder.

Albert Cadosch – had had surgery (I can’t imagine that in those days). He was having problems that morning and had to go to work. His attention was on himself. Dragging himself outside to the privy, not once by twice. He was unsure where the voices came from. He thought from the yard of 29, because that would have made sense. But his attention was not turned on his surroundings. He was simply mistaken.

John Richardson – well, he welcomed the limelight and being important. He had glanced at the lock, quickly, and hurried on his way as he was doing on market days. That was it, one quick glance. The rest was from perhaps another day or was simply fabricated . . . . he should have been a suspect, in my opinion – perhaps he was for awhile.

Also in my opinion, medical evidence stands firm behind a 4:30 or earlier time of death.

But, we all have different opinions and look at things differently. That's why these message boards are so fascinating.

Curious

[lynn cates]

expertise

Hello Curious. Your dictum:

"[M]edical evidence stands firm behind a 4:30 or earlier time of death."

pretty well says it all.

The best.
LC

[Chris]

From the research, it appears to me that rigor NEVER commences in less than two hours following death, but may commence much later than that because of variables -- that still makes Chapman's death prior to 4:30.

But five minutes with Google brings up this, for example:
"This rigidity may begin shortly after death—within 10–15 minutes—or may not begin until several hours later, depending on the condition of the body at the time of death and on environmental factors, such as moisture content of the air and particularly temperature."

http://www.enotes.com/forensic-science/rigor-mortis

As for deducing that it wasn't a case of cadaveric spasm from the fact that the whole body wasn't frozen into its position at the time of death:
"Cadaveric spasm may affect all the muscles of the body but it most commonly involves groups of muscles only, such as the muscles of the forearms and hands."

http://www.dundee.ac.uk/forensicmedicine/notes/timedeath.pdf

And the same source says that it is considered exceptional for rigor mortis to develop at all if the temperature is less than 10 degrees celsius, which I think is a further reason for caution.

[Archaic]

Rigor Mortis vs. Cadaveric Spasm

I researched the topic of Rigor Mortis and Cadaveric Spasm recently, and I just went back through my notes.

Rigor Mortis occurs when cellular respiration ceases and the various enzymes and amino acids stop circulating in the body, which causes the muscles to gradually contract and to remain stiff until the processes of decomposition commence. At this time the enzymes, proteins, etc., undergo biochemical breakdown and the muscles relax.

Apparently Cadaveric Spasm is rather rare. It seemed to me that that Cadaveric Spasm didn't pertain to Annie Chapman because Dr. George Bagster Phillips wrote that when he first examine the body, "the stiffness of the limbs was not marked, but was evidently commencing... he should say that the deceased had been dead at least two hours, and probably more, when he first saw her." Later on during the official post mortem Phillips wrote: "The stiffness of the limbs was now well marked".

This seems to me to be a clear indication that she wasn't "instantly rigid upon death" as happens with cases of Cadaveric Spasm, but that her body was gradually and progressively stiffening, as occurs in normal Rigor Mortis.

Here's an entry describing Cadaveric Spasm:
Cadaveric spasm, also known as instantaneous rigor, cataleptic rigidity, or instantaneous rigidity, is a rare form of muscular stiffening that occurs at the moment of death, persists into the period of rigor mortis, and can be mistaken for rigor mortis.
The cause is unknown, but usually associated with violent deaths happening with intense emotion.
Cadaveric spasm may affect all muscles in the body, but typically only groups, such as the forearms, or hands. Cadaveric spasm is seen in cases of drowning victims when grass, weeds, roots or other materials are clutched, and provides proof of life at the time of entry into the water.
Cadaveric spasm often crystallizes the last activity one did prior to death and is therefore significant in forensic investigations, e.g. clinging on a knife tightly.

The phrase "violent deaths happening with intense emotion" of course made me think of the Ripper victims, but in particular of Liz Stride, who died with her package of cachous still clutched in her hand. But I have to say that the phrase "persists into the period of rigor mortis" suggests that the dead body goes completely rigid and stays that way, rather than "relaxing" somewhat before full Rigor Mortis sets in.
Maybe Sam or someone else can clarify this point?

Best regards, Archaic