Chapman's Death

[Chava]

I was just reading the Chapman information on her Victims board. Her throat was cut very deeply--the neck was nearly severed. And there seems to have been s bit of arterial splashing on the fence near the ground. Given that there was very little room to move in the little alcove in the back yard where she was murdered, how did the killer manage to use his knife with such force? You could kill someone from the back like that. But from the front, you would need to use a huge amount of force and maybe have to kneel on the body to do it. I'm sure if that was done before death, bruising would occur. Is it possible that he strangled her to death before he used his knife? Then slashed her throat as she lay face-down, turned her over and then started with his knife. So that the blood spots on the fence would be spatter from the violent raising and lowering of the knife rather than from a killing stroke? If this is the case, then perhaps it's possible to look at the height of that spatter, and so get an idea of the height of the killer? The spots are in something of a horizontal line, which could roughly line up with the angle of the knife...

[Mitch Rowe]

Philips said Annie died of syncope and that means the heart stopped because it was empty and had no more blood to pump. Philips surmised Annie died where she lay. I presume because of the massive amount of blood beneath her neck and possibly from the markings on the palings.

Police surmised the Ripper had a very sharp knife indeed. And that he was strong. OJ was able to do roughly the same thing but he used a knife that most likely would have been far duller than the ripper could have used if he had stopped by any butchers shop and sharpened it on a public sharpening devices.

There are indications that Annie was forcefully handled in some manner. Annie wasnt in between the steps and the fence but in a position where the Ripper would have had enough room to operate comfortably.

[Chava]

Good points Mitch!

Something else also occurs...

Cadoche heard 'no' and something fall against the fence. I wonder if it's possible that someone came downstairs and went outside ahead of whoever discovered the body. Saw it. Said 'no' and staggered with shock, steadying him/herself on the fence. And left in a hurry because he/she did not want to get involved. It's not impossible that such a thing could happen. If this had happened, it would mean that Chapman could have been killed earlier. Which does kind of jibe with what the doctors thought.

[kensei]

Good points Mitch!

Something else also occurs...

Cadoche heard 'no' and something fall against the fence. I wonder if it's possible that someone came downstairs and went outside ahead of whoever discovered the body. Saw it. Said 'no' and staggered with shock, steadying him/herself on the fence. And left in a hurry because he/she did not want to get involved. It's not impossible that such a thing could happen. If this had happened, it would mean that Chapman could have been killed earlier. Which does kind of jibe with what the doctors thought.

Your post prompted me to recheck the witness accounts. Cadoche heard the voice say "no" at an undetermined time between 5:15 and 5:30. He then went back inside his house but returned to the yard three or four minutes later at which time he heard something fall against the fence. He then left to go to work and saw when he reached the clock on Christchurch Spitalfields that it was 5:32.

Meanwhile, Elizabeth Long said she saw Annie talking to a man outside #29 at 5:30, as she had just heard the brewery clock on Brick Lane strike that time. So if anything, if Cadoche heard something other than the murder taking place it would seem that it had to be something that happened before, not after.

[Chava]

Your post prompted me to recheck the witness accounts. Cadoche heard the voice say "no" at an undetermined time between 5:15 and 5:30. He then went back inside his house but returned to the yard three or four minutes later at which time he heard something fall against the fence. He then left to go to work and saw when he reached the clock on Christchurch Spitalfields that it was 5:32.

Meanwhile, Elizabeth Long said she saw Annie talking to a man outside #29 at 5:30, as she had just heard the brewery clock on Brick Lane strike that time. So if anything, if Cadoche heard something other than the murder taking place it would seem that it had to be something that happened before, not after.

One of the major problems for me in this murder is the contradictive witness statements. Long is sure she saw her man and woman at 5.30 am. Cadoche puts his event slightly earlier. I've always thought that, of the two, Long was the more likely to be mistaken, and I still think that. Could have been any prostitute and customer. But in the case of Cadoche, three or four minutes is a very long time. I cannot believe it would take the Ripper that long to kill Chapman. If the cry of 'no' came immediately before the sound on the fence, I would say that he overheard the killing. What he could have heard was the Ripper losing balance and falling against the fence in the course of mutilating the body. However if that's the case, then Long's evidence is entirely wrong.

[perrymason]

One of the major problems for me in this murder is the contradictive witness statements. Long is sure she saw her man and woman at 5.30 am. Cadoche puts his event slightly earlier. I've always thought that, of the two, Long was the more likely to be mistaken, and I still think that. Could have been any prostitute and customer. But in the case of Cadoche, three or four minutes is a very long time. I cannot believe it would take the Ripper that long to kill Chapman. If the cry of 'no' came immediately before the sound on the fence, I would say that he overheard the killing. What he could have heard was the Ripper losing balance and falling against the fence in the course of mutilating the body. However if that's the case, then Long's evidence is entirely wrong.

That last line is my personal take on her Chava....the fact Cadoche hears a thud in connection with that "no" is to me evidence the killing was beginning. He subdues them by choking or cutting off air in some form...I believe the word he hears gets out before the killers grip or ligature was fully tightened.

To ignore him is to ignore evidence that a struggle of some kind between two people is happening on the spot where Annie dies and is found...and that it happened around the time of the murder.

My thinking is that even if that yard was used regularly by whores, we dont need to suggest that 2 separate "couples" used that yard within say...the most critical 15 minutes in terms of the investigation.

Its like suggesting Jack somehow slips into Dutfields Yard after 12:46.

Cheers mate.....nice day for Family Day eh Chava? Its beautiful down by the lake, had a morning walk by the water. Make sure you get outside pal.

[Chava]

I went out this morning. Lovely day in LI! Happy Family Day!

[kensei]

I think that between Long and Cadoche, it is Cadoche who is the more likely to be mistaken as to time, simply because Long said she was sure as to the time of 5:30 because she had just heard the brewery clock chime, while Cadoche admitted he was estimating. I think it very unlikely that Cadoche was remembering wrong about his going back inside for a few minutes and there being that gap between the "no" and the noise against the fence, so if it was the murder he was hearing (which I actually think is most probable), perhaps the "no" was Annie when Jack first started to choke her, and the second sound a few minutes later was Jack putting his hand against the fence to brace himself as he stood up after finishing cutting her up.

The idea that more than one prostitute might have serviced a client in that yard within the crucial quarter-hour is, in my opinion, too far-fetched to consider.

[Nothing to see]

Sorry to have to disagree with you but I do. Given a choice between Long and Cadosche I'd believe his testimony.

He was next door. He was standing there and heard the conversation (what there was) and he heard something fall against the fence. MO.

[kensei]

I don't disagree with that at all, actually I think Long and Cadoche were both right as to what they witnessed, he just may have been off as to time.

[perrymason]

I think its impossible to deny Cadoches story....he hears sounds in the back yard of Hanbury where sometime within a half hour time frame for her being in place...including that very time....a woman is choked and killed on that very spot.

Course I think Schwartz saw Liz's killer...for just about the same reasons.

Cheers Mates

[Roy Corduroy]

A helpful Casebook diagram



And this from the Sept 10 Star

'...a woman has stated that a man accosted her on Saturday morning and gave her two "half-sovereigns," but that, when he became violent, she screamed and he ran off. She discovered afterwards that the "half-sovereigns" were two brass medals. It is said that this woman did accompany the man, who seemed as if he would kill her, to a house in Hanbury-street, possibly No. 29, at half-past two a.m. This woman, Emily Walter, a lodger in one of the common lodging-houses of Spitalfields, was asked to describe the man, but her description of him was not considered clear. Still the police determined to follow up the matter, more particularly because the woman states that the man seemed ready to kill her. The woman's description did not answer the description of the man "Leather Apron," for whom they have been searching in connection with the murder of Mary Ann Nicholls.''

Then we hear no more of her.

Roy

[Mitch Rowe]

Farthings?

Inquest: Alice Mackenzie

Detective-Inspector Edmund Reid, H Division, said:

I also found a bronze farthing underneath the clothes of the deceased. There was also blood on the farthing.

In another instance of this kind - the Hanbury-street murder - two similar farthings were found.

[Nothing to see]

Maybe I've seen too many movies and TV specials about Jack but I really don't place any great faith in the farthings, combs etc 'placed' around Annie's body. She had marks on her fingers that indicated she had been wearing rings but those rings were never located.

I'm guessing (IMO) Jack took them as trophies.

[Frank]

Does anyone know how the brewery clock on Brick Lane chimed at xx.00, xx.15, xx.30 and xx.45?
Was it one chime at xx.15, two at xx.30, three chimes at xx.45, or always one chime respectively. Maybe (in the second case) Elizabeth Long was just misinterpreting the time, and her statement could be brought in a timeline with that of Cadosh...