Can we definitively conclude that Alice McKenzie was not killed by the Ripper?

[Michael W Richards]

First off Id like to say hi to Tom, its been quite a long time since you and I exchanged ideas directly. I have read some of your published stuff and was impressed with the research done. Im sure we still clash on many points but its not essential that our clashes be bashes, and it is nice to see an old poster.

When I saw that there was so little available light on the 8th for me that does suggest a likely murder time closer to dawn. The cuts were too neat for that murder to be accomplished without some light.

[Wickerman]

Not more astrology nonsense?

[Wickerman]

The Ripper choosing to kill on nights when the moon was not prominent; ergo, a Half Moon, 3 quarter, or Full Moon, may have been the Ripper's subtle way of trying to tell the world that he wasn't a "Lunatic."


RD

Cloud cover on Nov. 8-9th was 100%.

[Michael W Richards]

I agree Jon, enough Lunar-cy.

As for whether Alice was killed by the same man commonly referred to as The Ripper, I suppose it would depend on how legitimate claims of a Seaside Home attempted Id are. Exactly when Jack the Ripper stopped killing isnt marked on any calendar, its a flexible point in time apparently...related to whom you believe was the last victim. If Alice was a Ripper victim, then one wonders why the illusion was created about an alleged apprehension and institutional installation suggested by Senior investigators? Or did the Seaside Home interview actually take place, and they discovered they didnt have the right man? It is suggested that the witness brought in for that id...likely Schwartz or Lawende, refused to identify the man as the killer. Does that mean he recognized him, or that he wouldnt or couldnt state that for certain?

Lots of variable as always, but the skills used by her killer were suggested as revealing little anatomical knowledge by the same medical authority who said the opposite about Chapmans killer, Dr Phillips. Annie, for me, is the first and stereotypical Jack the Ripper victim. It was her murder that caused the authorities to consider someone with at least rudimentary medical knowledge, and they scoured teaching hospitals and facilities to search for problematic individuals.

Phillips comments about Alice are actually quite interesting..."After careful and long deliberation, I cannot satisfy myself, on purely Anatomical and professional grounds that the perpetrator of all the "Wh Ch. murders" is our man. I am on the contrary impelled to a contrary conclusion in this noting the mode of procedure and the character of the mutilations and judging of motive in connection with the latter. I do not here enter into the comparison of the cases neither do I take into account what I admit may be almost conclusive evidence in favour of the one man theory if all the surrounding circumstances and other evidence are considered, holding it as my duty to report on the P.M. appearances and express an opinion only on Professional grounds, based upon my own observation."

Seems to me he rules out that she was killed by the same Whitechapel Murders killer, though he later states he isnt engaging in comparisons. But dont you have to compare these to arrive at his conclusion?

Bond said about Alices injuries.. "I see in this murder evidence of similar design to the former Whitechapel murders, viz. sudden onslaught on the prostrate woman, the throat skillfully and resolutely cut with subsequent mutilation, each mutilation indicating sexual thoughts and a desire to mutilate the abdomen and sexual organs. I am of opinion that the murder was performed by the same person who committed the former series of Whitechapel murder."

Monro said about Alice, although Anderson had expressed his doubts this was the same man as the one who cause London to cower the previous Fall, ...."I need not say that every effort will be made by the police to discover the murderer, who, I am inclined to believe, is identical with the notorious Jack the Ripper of last year."

Why I posted these is because there is no consensus within the authorities opinions on when the Whitechapel killer stopped killing. Based on that alone, Alice should be considered in my opinion.

[Lewis C]

If Chapman was killed after dawn and since Kelly was killed indoors, to me that means that August 31st and September 30th are the only days of C5 murders when the amount of moonlight might matter.

[Wickerman]

....

Why I posted these is because there is no consensus within the authorities opinions on when the Whitechapel killer stopped killing. Based on that alone, Alice should be considered in my opinion.

Agreed Michael, it is a matter of choice.
No evidence either way.
It's just that including her, about 8 months after Kelly, is a bit of a stretch.
It tends to require the theorist to account for the 8 month interval, then justify why only one, and not a further string of victims?

[seanr]

Sorry, but why is 8 months a bit of a stretch? Absolutely in line with known offenders of serial murders.

For example, there was over 9 months between Peter Sutcliffe's attack on Marcella Claxton and his murder of Irene Richardson. Later there were only two weeks between murdering Jayne MacDonald and his attack on Maureen Long.

There's nothing absolutely definitive, suggestive or evidential about an 8 month period without a known attack.

[The Rookie Detective]

Sorry, but why is 8 months a bit of a stretch? Absolutely in line with known offenders of serial murders.

For example, there was over 9 months between Peter Sutcliffe's attack on Marcella Claxton and his murder of Irene Richardson. Later there were only two weeks between murdering Jayne MacDonald and his attack on Maureen Long.

There's nothing absolutely definitive, suggestive or evidential about an 8 month period without a known attack.

That's an excellent point.


8 months is not a long enough time gap to rule out McKenzie being a potetial Ripper victim, on the basis that other serial killers have had a similar duration between kills.

The time gap between Kelly and Mckenzie is generally used as a means to counter anyone who considers that the Ripper may have killed more than just the generic Canonical 5.


RD

[Wickerman]

Sorry, but why is 8 months a bit of a stretch? Absolutely in line with known offenders of serial murders.

For example, there was over 9 months between Peter Sutcliffe's attack on Marcella Claxton and his murder of Irene Richardson. Later there were only two weeks between murdering Jayne MacDonald and his attack on Maureen Long.

There's nothing absolutely definitive, suggestive or evidential about an 8 month period without a known attack.

Are you suggesting Richardson was the last victim?
You are not responding to my point, you cherry-picked one comment, but ignored the other.

The Ripper murdered several victims all close together, then a gap of 8 months, and you think he returned to only kill one last victim?

Peter Sutcliffe attacked Claxton in May '76, then Richardson in Feb. '77, but carried on with more victims; in Apr., then June, then July, Oct., Dec., etc.

You avoided my 2nd point - the Ripper is supposed to have waited 8 months, then murdered McKenzie, but no-one else?
He is supposed to have come out of his hiatus, to just kill one more victim, then stop?
Why?
That needs explaining to justify the 8 month interval.

Tell me how that was matched by the activity of Sutcliffe.

[John Wheat]

The 8 month gap followed by no other victims makes it extremely unlikely Mackenzie was a Ripper victim in my opinion.

[Lewis C]

The outdoor C5 murders and Tabram's murder all occurred in August or September - warm weather months. It wasn't until about early May that the general temperatures were as warm as in late September. So there was only about a 2 month delay between the return of warm weather and Mackenzie's murder. True, he could have killed indoors during the cold months, but maybe the Kelly murder was a unique opportunity that was unlikely to arise again.

As to why no more murders after Mackenzie, the question of why he stopped is there regardless of who you think the last victim was. Whether the last victim was Kelly or Mackenzie, he probably stopped either because of death, confinement, deterioration of health, he moved away, or he thought he was close to being caught.

[John Wheat]

imho its a moot point because the ripper wasnt psychotic.

How do you know the Ripper wasn't psychotic?

[Wickerman]

The outdoor C5 murders and Tabram's murder all occurred in August or September - warm weather months. It wasn't until about early May that the general temperatures were as warm as in late September. So there was only about a 2 month delay between the return of warm weather and Mackenzie's murder. True, he could have killed indoors during the cold months, but maybe the Kelly murder was a unique opportunity that was unlikely to arise again.

Prostitutes still have to eat, drink & pay rent, regardless what time of year it is. They are out longer than 'Jack' needs to be.
Other people were out attacking & killing in Winter, so why not 'Jack'?

[John Wheat]

The outdoor C5 murders and Tabram's murder all occurred in August or September - warm weather months. It wasn't until about early May that the general temperatures were as warm as in late September. So there was only about a 2 month delay between the return of warm weather and Mackenzie's murder. True, he could have killed indoors during the cold months, but maybe the Kelly murder was a unique opportunity that was unlikely to arise again.

As to why no more murders after Mackenzie, the question of why he stopped is there regardless of who you think the last victim was. Whether the last victim was Kelly or Mackenzie, he probably stopped either because of death, confinement, deterioration of health, he moved away, or he thought he was close to being caught.

But late September doesn't tend to be that warm.

[Lewis C]

Prostitutes still have to eat, drink & pay rent, regardless what time of year it is. They are out longer than 'Jack' needs to be.
Other people were out attacking & killing in Winter, so why not 'Jack'?

Different killers have different ways of doing things.