The ONLY suspect that had killed "Unfortunates".

[Michael W Richards]

On the the topic of intestines retracting outwards I have attached a crime scene photo of a female murder victim who it can be see had her throat cut, and was also stabbed in the abdomen but not to the extent of the Ripper victims. This wound as shown caused the intestines to recoil outwards. It could almost be a mirror image of Catherine Eddowes.

The point I make is that the intestines of Chapman and Eddowes were described as being placed by design, which I have to question the validity of those observations.

www.trevormarriott.co.uk

I believe that Annies and Kates were "placed" over their respective shoulders, which makes the act seem utilitarian and only for unfettered access.

[Trevor Marriott]

She wasn't mutilated to anywhere approaching the extent of any of the Ripper's evisceration victims. A 4½ inch abdominal cut barely registers as a scratch in comparison to Nichols, Chapman, Eddowes and Kelly. And, whilst it's true that an intestine had bulged out of the wound, it would have been surprising if something hadn't popped out, given that her body had been crammed into such a small space.

On the the topic of intestines retracting outwards I have attached a crime scene photo of a female murder victim who it can be see had her throat cut, and was also stabbed in the abdomen but not to the extent of the Ripper victims. This wound as shown caused the intestines to recoil outwards. It could almost be a mirror image of Catherine Eddowes.

The point I make is that the intestines of Chapman and Eddowes were described as being placed by design, which I have to question the validity of those observations.

https://www.trevormarriott.co.uk

[Sam Flynn]

I have to disagree with you Wickerman. I would call Ellen Bury's murder a Ripper style murder. Admittedly Ellen wasn't mutilated to the extent of Mary Jane Kelly.

She wasn't mutilated to anywhere approaching the extent of any of the Ripper's evisceration victims. A 4½ inch abdominal cut barely registers as a scratch in comparison to Nichols, Chapman, Eddowes and Kelly. And, whilst it's true that an intestine had bulged out of the wound, it would have been surprising if something hadn't popped out, given that her body had been crammed into such a small space.

[Jon Guy]

Jane Beadmore`s murder on 23rd Sept 1888 was the first Ripper copycat murder.

[Michael W Richards]

In the interests of fairness, John, if Bury wasn't the "world's first copycat killer" then Alice McKenzie's murderer most certainly was, no?

I think that raises a very salient point Harry, since so many of the members here and I imagine many Ripper students everywhere else seem to believe that "copycat" killings, or mimic killings are not present within these Unsolved Murders, one need only review Alices murder case and it seems probable that there were people emulating prior acts. At least one anyway.

I believe that the Unsolved killings most closely related by wounds and circumstantial evidence are Pollys, Annies and Alices.

[Harry D]

It seems to me Bury thought he'd get away with Ellen's murder. So we're basically left with the question of wether Bury was the Ripper or the World's first copycat killer?

In the interests of fairness, John, if Bury wasn't the "world's first copycat killer" then Alice McKenzie's murderer most certainly was, no?

[John Wheat]

Well John, I guess there's mutilation, and there's mutilation.

Not what I would call a "Ripper" style murder.

I have to disagree with you Wickerman. I would call Ellen Bury's murder a Ripper style murder. Admittedly Ellen wasn't mutilated to the extent of Mary Jane Kelly. However if Bury had mutilated Ellen Bury to the extent of Mary Jane Kelly he would have been hung as the Ripper. It seems to me Bury thought he'd get away with Ellen's murder. So we're basically left with the question of wether Bury was the Ripper or the World's first copycat killer?

Cheers John

[Wickerman]

Well John, I guess there's mutilation, and there's mutilation.

This is how the murder scene was described:

Police officers visited Princes Street and began a search by candlelight. The apartment was bare of possessions, the only items in the two rooms were a small bed piled high with clothing, and a large white-washed packing case. Opening the box, by raising two loose boards on the lid and pulling back a piece of sheeting, they revealed the leg and foot of a female. Proceeding no further, they summoned doctors Templeman and Stalker, who proceeded to examine the contents of the 3ft 3in long, by 2ft 4in across, and 2ft 1in deep trunk. They discovered the naked and mutilated body of Ellen Bury, she had been strangled and her abdomen had been ripped open by a wound beginning 1½ inches from the pubis and extending upwards for 4 ½ inches, the wound was so severe that 12 inches of intestines were protruding through her stomach. Apart from the wound to the abdomen there were a total of nine other knife wounds to the body. The box, which was clearly too small to accommodate the body, had been packed tightly with books and clothing. Ellen's head had been forced to one side of the shoulder, the left leg was broken and twisted to such a degree that the foot rested on the left shoulder, the right leg had been smashed in order to fit it into the box, the body was lying on it's back on a petticoat and a piece of cloth. A long bladed knife, which had been used to commit the crime, lay nearby, along with a rope, complete with strands of hair still attached.

http://www.casebook.org/ripper_media/book_reviews/non-fiction/cjmorley/30.html

Not what I would call a "Ripper" style murder.

[John Wheat]

Wasn't Bury's wife a prostitute at one point? And didn't he mutilate her?

[RavenDarkendale]

The Skoptsy. Look them up in Wiki and there is two very good photos of what they looked like after their "castration." If that guy could have normal sexual relations with a woman that wasn't something besides his missing member then I am Batman!

If the guy in this thread went to those people and went through with their rituals, he was ruined sexually, which of course was the idea.

God Bless
Raven

[PaulWilliams]

Alois Szemeredy is another suspect who killed an unfortunate with a knife prior to the Whitechapel murders, although his crime was committed indoors.

[Sam Flynn]

Thank you for the side bar and I return you to your regular scheduled program

Before you switch channels, Primate, I'll just share this story with you, and anyone else who cares to read it.

Since the age of the castrato had long since passed (the last castrato, Moreschi, died in 1922), the next great innovation in baroque opera singing was the advent of the operatic countertenor, or "Male Alto". Countertenors use a highly developed form of falsetto to sing very high notes, rather than foregoing their gonads in order to do so.

The singer who did more than anyone else to firmly establish this style of operatic singing was the Englishman, Alfred Deller, who became the first superstar countertenor, I suppose. He gave a concert in France in the 1950s, after which a woman from the audience rushed up to him and breathlessly exclaimed: "Why, monsieur Deller! You are eunuch, no?"; to which Deller coolly replied: "I think you mean unique, madame".

[pr1mate]

Not even then, Primate. Many operatic castrato singers were renowned for their womanising and sexual prowess. Castrati had to have their "two veg" removed well before their voices broke or they'd never have made a living

I know this is an odd subject and I don't want to hijack the thread but it is a common mistake that castration means removal of the berries and the twig Thank you for the information Sam. I came by the information on the subject when I was interested in ancient Egypt for a bit. I had read, somewhere at some time, that a true eunuch had the castration prior to puberty which made them unable to obtain "arousal" so that is why they were aloud to guard the ladies. As usual, I ignored the don't believe everything you read rule.... Thank you for the side bar and I return you to your regular scheduled throed program

This is incorrect. You can have sex after castration. Castration is removal of the testies. If he had a penectomy then you could say his condition prohibited sexual relations. The exception would be if his castration took place prior to puberty (a eunuch), which I am assuming is not the case here.

Im not certain in this case if the amputation stopped at the testes actually, I sort of remember reading it was voluntary and complete castration. In which case the sexual exploits would be limited to artificial, digital and oral.

Best regards

[Sam Flynn]

This is incorrect. You can have sex after castration. Castration is removal of the testies. If he had a penectomy then you could say his condition prohibited sexual relations. The exception would be if his castration took place prior to puberty...

Not even then, Primate. Many operatic castrato singers were renowned for their womanising and sexual prowess. Castrati had to have their "two veg" removed well before their voices broke or they'd never have made a living