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The ONLY suspect that had killed "Unfortunates".

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  • The ONLY suspect that had killed "Unfortunates".

    Hi all,

    Although the term "Unfortunate" was and is not a universal term for "Street Prostitute", in the case of the LVP, the perception seems to be that the 2 terms are synonymous for the most part.

    They ply their trade outdoors, and have no visible means of financial support other than solicitation. The term Unfortunate also refers to the homeless state that they had.

    That being said, I can find only one "Suspect" that had a specific history of killing Street Prostitutes with a knife outdoors in public prior to the killings in the Fall of 1888. One account says that these crimes may have been in 1875, when a man attacked several prostitutes in a particular area of Paris called the "Rochechouart quarter", and that these were not committed by a Nikolas Vasilev. Another report suggests he was a killer of street prostitute, but not relating to the above story.

    After being caught in the act after murdering a few women , (he was alleged to have been searching for a prostitute he fell in love with...who he finds and kills, ...it is said he killed the women to "cleanse their souls",...he supposedly killed 5 prostitutes in Paris with a knife, and was caught in the act on his last),.. and he was incarcerated and found or considered mentally ill. It is said he had previously castrated himself voluntarily to join a cultish group called The Skoptsy, consisting of eunuchs or castrati, sometimes called The Shorn. It is suggested he was released on January 1st, 1888, and was last seen at large and heading towards London in the Winter/Spring of 1888. His decription was "tall, lean, with a brawny form, a pale, waxy complexion (which may have been a side effect of castration) and burning black eyes".....and his age was 40 at his release.

    The single biggest obstacle with this suspect is verifying his history, which despite some attempts, has not been specifically authenticated. But 2 books were published in 1888 calling him the Whitechapel murderer, one self published in New York.

    This suspect if his history is real must by one if not a prime suspect for the killings if it can be proved he was in fact in London at that time. His description does not eliminate him and his past incriminates him... if true. His condition prohibits sexual relations, which none of the Canonicals were said to have engaged in with their killer, and he believed prostitutes were sinners.

    Does anyone know of any literature specific to this suspect that is not present on this site?

    Thanks in advance, and best regards all.
    Last edited by perrymason; 06-27-2009, 09:43 PM.

  • #2
    motive

    Hello. Ah, here we are! This is the chap you mentioned on the other thread.

    Permit me to observe that, perhaps the big question here is NOT whether or not Vasilev is "Jack" or even if he exists; but, rather, does his supposed motivation for killing prostitutes count as viable. I think it does.

    Thanks, as always!

    LC

    Comment


    • #3
      This guy sounds a lot like Sweeney Todd... a creation.

      Cheers,

      Mike
      huh?

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by The Good Michael View Post
        This guy sounds a lot like Sweeney Todd... a creation.

        Cheers,

        Mike
        I think more to the point Mike, it seems we can confirm as many of the stories about him as we can for Mary Jane .....though... it is important that of the 2 books that were published in 1888-1889, the 1888 one self published by a New York author, about the Whitechapel Murders, both had Vasiliev as the Ripper.

        If this man wasnt just some construction of literature, then as a man who killed Unfortunates with a knife and having mutilated some of them, and someone who was last seen in January of 1888 leaving Europe for London, he has to be considered as a prime suspect I would think.

        All the best Mike

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by perrymason View Post
          His condition prohibits sexual relations,
          This is incorrect. You can have sex after castration. Castration is removal of the testies. If he had a penectomy then you could say his condition prohibited sexual relations. The exception would be if his castration took place prior to puberty (a eunuch), which I am assuming is not the case here.

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by pr1mate View Post
            This is incorrect. You can have sex after castration. Castration is removal of the testies. If he had a penectomy then you could say his condition prohibited sexual relations. The exception would be if his castration took place prior to puberty...
            Not even then, Primate. Many operatic castrato singers were renowned for their womanising and sexual prowess. Castrati had to have their "two veg" removed well before their voices broke or they'd never have made a living
            Kind regards, Sam Flynn

            "Suche Nullen" (Nietzsche, Götzendämmerung, 1888)

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by pr1mate View Post
              This is incorrect. You can have sex after castration. Castration is removal of the testies. If he had a penectomy then you could say his condition prohibited sexual relations. The exception would be if his castration took place prior to puberty (a eunuch), which I am assuming is not the case here.
              Im not certain in this case if the amputation stopped at the testes actually, I sort of remember reading it was voluntary and complete castration. In which case the sexual exploits would be limited to artificial, digital and oral.

              Best regards

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by Sam Flynn View Post
                Not even then, Primate. Many operatic castrato singers were renowned for their womanising and sexual prowess. Castrati had to have their "two veg" removed well before their voices broke or they'd never have made a living
                I know this is an odd subject and I don't want to hijack the thread but it is a common mistake that castration means removal of the berries and the twig Thank you for the information Sam. I came by the information on the subject when I was interested in ancient Egypt for a bit. I had read, somewhere at some time, that a true eunuch had the castration prior to puberty which made them unable to obtain "arousal" so that is why they were aloud to guard the ladies. As usual, I ignored the don't believe everything you read rule.... Thank you for the side bar and I return you to your regular scheduled throed program

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by pr1mate View Post
                  Thank you for the side bar and I return you to your regular scheduled program
                  Before you switch channels, Primate, I'll just share this story with you, and anyone else who cares to read it.

                  Since the age of the castrato had long since passed (the last castrato, Moreschi, died in 1922), the next great innovation in baroque opera singing was the advent of the operatic countertenor, or "Male Alto". Countertenors use a highly developed form of falsetto to sing very high notes, rather than foregoing their gonads in order to do so.

                  The singer who did more than anyone else to firmly establish this style of operatic singing was the Englishman, Alfred Deller, who became the first superstar countertenor, I suppose. He gave a concert in France in the 1950s, after which a woman from the audience rushed up to him and breathlessly exclaimed: "Why, monsieur Deller! You are eunuch, no?"; to which Deller coolly replied: "I think you mean unique, madame".
                  Kind regards, Sam Flynn

                  "Suche Nullen" (Nietzsche, Götzendämmerung, 1888)

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Alois Szemeredy is another suspect who killed an unfortunate with a knife prior to the Whitechapel murders, although his crime was committed indoors.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      The Skoptsy. Look them up in Wiki and there is two very good photos of what they looked like after their "castration." If that guy could have normal sexual relations with a woman that wasn't something besides his missing member then I am Batman!

                      If the guy in this thread went to those people and went through with their rituals, he was ruined sexually, which of course was the idea.

                      God Bless
                      Raven
                      And the questions always linger, no real answer in sight

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Wasn't Bury's wife a prostitute at one point? And didn't he mutilate her?

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Well John, I guess there's mutilation, and there's mutilation.

                          This is how the murder scene was described:

                          Police officers visited Princes Street and began a search by candlelight. The apartment was bare of possessions, the only items in the two rooms were a small bed piled high with clothing, and a large white-washed packing case. Opening the box, by raising two loose boards on the lid and pulling back a piece of sheeting, they revealed the leg and foot of a female. Proceeding no further, they summoned doctors Templeman and Stalker, who proceeded to examine the contents of the 3ft 3in long, by 2ft 4in across, and 2ft 1in deep trunk. They discovered the naked and mutilated body of Ellen Bury, she had been strangled and her abdomen had been ripped open by a wound beginning 1½ inches from the pubis and extending upwards for 4 ½ inches, the wound was so severe that 12 inches of intestines were protruding through her stomach. Apart from the wound to the abdomen there were a total of nine other knife wounds to the body. The box, which was clearly too small to accommodate the body, had been packed tightly with books and clothing. Ellen's head had been forced to one side of the shoulder, the left leg was broken and twisted to such a degree that the foot rested on the left shoulder, the right leg had been smashed in order to fit it into the box, the body was lying on it's back on a petticoat and a piece of cloth. A long bladed knife, which had been used to commit the crime, lay nearby, along with a rope, complete with strands of hair still attached.

                          http://www.casebook.org/ripper_media...morley/30.html

                          Not what I would call a "Ripper" style murder.
                          Regards, Jon S.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by Wickerman View Post
                            Well John, I guess there's mutilation, and there's mutilation.

                            Not what I would call a "Ripper" style murder.
                            I have to disagree with you Wickerman. I would call Ellen Bury's murder a Ripper style murder. Admittedly Ellen wasn't mutilated to the extent of Mary Jane Kelly. However if Bury had mutilated Ellen Bury to the extent of Mary Jane Kelly he would have been hung as the Ripper. It seems to me Bury thought he'd get away with Ellen's murder. So we're basically left with the question of wether Bury was the Ripper or the World's first copycat killer?

                            Cheers John

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by John Wheat View Post
                              It seems to me Bury thought he'd get away with Ellen's murder. So we're basically left with the question of wether Bury was the Ripper or the World's first copycat killer?
                              In the interests of fairness, John, if Bury wasn't the "world's first copycat killer" then Alice McKenzie's murderer most certainly was, no?

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