Two reasons AGAINST Tumblety being the Ripper

[mklhawley]

Hello mr. Evans
Not sure what I said to deserve this response, I thought it was a fairly innocuous answer to the thread starters original question. That is simply that tumblety does not match any of the witness descriptions. And he does not. He was a very large man and none of the best witnesses describe a large man. Long, marshal, smith, Schwartz, cox none of them describe a big man.

I guess it's possible that none of them saw the ripper (if tumblety was the ripper) or if they did they missed describing the largeness of the man. But I would think that size would be one of the easier things to get right.

And since , as you have so graciously pointed out , you have way more experience than I do with witness descriptions I ask you-is size something that witnesses typically get so wrong?

Keep in mind Abby Normal, Tumblety did fit a specific witness description in November 1888, a lone man in an American slouch hat. I have posted a number of articles demonstrating this. It's what got young Sir Arthur into hot water.

Sincerely,
Mike

[mklhawley]

How is this as a plausible scenario (although one hard to prove):

The Yard feels stupid for letting Doc out so easily (a bail on a lesser charge - though the only one they had him on, apparently, that he finds he can pay easily, and then he skips to France and then America). In 1881 the railroad police looked stupidly incompetent when they allowed an opportunity to Percy Lefroy Mapleton to flee through a back door in his house when he was supposed to be returned to Brighton for more rigorous questioning about the railroad murder of Frederick Isaac Gold. It took two weeks or so to recapture Mapleton. The Yard was not doing too well with the Whitechapel Murders Case anyway, but to let a serious suspect escape too easily was just a huge new nightmare.

So they send Andrews to Canada to get further information, supposedly on Tumblety's possible criminal activities there. They also seek to try to connect him to the letters by contacting the police in the U.S. for samples of his hadwriting. They also send Andrews (supposedly more secretly but the news gets out) to New York to get any information on Doc, and possibly to arrest him (for bail jumping most likely). But they stope after a few weeks.
They don't even try to get Tumblety returned for the bail jumping!

In the meantime a family in Dorset has contacted some members at the Yard about their missing relative Montague, and how he as been very secretive and strange and even violent in his behavior recently. They have grave suspicions about what he may have been doing. Then Montague's drowned body is found, and the inquest finds he died a suicide when under unsound mind. Now there is an equally plausible local suspect, and the Yard decides it is now able to begin dismantling the investigation since Druitt (an equally good suspect to Doc is dead). They call Andrews home, and he does not even bother to seek extradition for Monty from the U.S. for the morals charge.

It might seem to fit together.

Hi Jeff,

You have a wealth of information and intriguing connections. Now with Andrews, he went to Canada. When Scotland Yard contacted the New York authorities prior to Tumblety making landfall on Dec 2, 1888, they had already informed them Tumblety was not extraditable for gross indecency. Also, I'm sure Andrews never intended to take Tumblety back, since his mission predated Tumblety's escape.

Sincerely,
Mike

[Trevor Marriott]

How is this as a plausible scenario (although one hard to prove):

The Yard feels stupid for letting Doc out so easily (a bail on a lesser charge - though the only one they had him on, apparently, that he finds he can pay easily, and then he skips to France and then America). In 1881 the railroad police looked stupidly incompetent when they allowed an opportunity to Percy Lefroy Mapleton to flee through a back door in his house when he was supposed to be returned to Brighton for more rigorous questioning about the railroad murder of Frederick Isaac Gold. It took two weeks or so to recapture Mapleton. The Yard was not doing too well with the Whitechapel Murders Case anyway, but to let a serious suspect escape too easily was just a huge new nightmare.

So they send Andrews to Canada to get further information, supposedly on Tumblety's possible criminal activities there. They also seek to try to connect him to the letters by contacting the police in the U.S. for samples of his hadwriting. They also send Andrews (supposedly more secretly but the news gets out) to New York to get any information on Doc, and possibly to arrest him (for bail jumping most likely). But they stope after a few weeks.
They don't even try to get Tumblety returned for the bail jumping!

In the meantime a family in Dorset has contacted some members at the Yard about their missing relative Montague, and how he as been very secretive and strange and even violent in his behavior recently. They have grave suspicions about what he may have been doing. Then Montague's drowned body is found, and the inquest finds he died a suicide when under unsound mind. Now there is an equally plausible local suspect, and the Yard decides it is now able to begin dismantling the investigation since Druitt (an equally good suspect to Doc is dead). They call Andrews home, and he does not even bother to seek extradition for Monty from the U.S. for the morals charge.

It might seem to fit together.

Firstly if they had suspected of him being the ripper they would not have bailed him on the gross indecency charges.They would have kept him in and tried to build a case for murder whilst they had him in custody for the gross indecency offences

Secondly as to handwriting they had the chance to keep him in custody for up to 24 hours following his arrest. So if they had him under suspicion they had ample opportunity to have him give a handwriting sample and besides his handwriting would have been on the court documents he signed when being granted bail.

As to why Anderson asked for handwriting we can only speculate but many things Anderson has said and written must be treated with suspicion he seems to have been a man trying to be a legend in his own lifetime, and would appear to have gilded the lily on more than one occasion

[Abby Normal]

Keep in mind Abby Normal, Tumblety did fit a specific witness description in November 1888, a lone man in an American slouch hat. I have posted a number of articles demonstrating this. It's what got young Sir Arthur into hot water.

Sincerely,
Mike

Thanks mike
Do we know who gave that description, and or how the police came by it?

Also, I have always been intrigued with the story of the American dr. Looking to procure specimens. That story, along with the info that tumblety had female organs/specimens has often lead me to the idea that if tumblety was somehow involved that it had to do with him finding someone to do his dirty work for him. Someone who he paid to procure the specimens, like a chapman perhaps.

[Bridewell]

Secondly as to handwriting they had the chance to keep him in custody for up to 24 hours following his arrest. So if they had him under suspicion they had ample opportunity to have him give a handwriting sample and besides his handwriting would have been on the court documents he signed when being granted bail.

Did he have to sign court documents when granted bail? (Serious question as he wouldn't have to do so now.)

[mklhawley]

Firstly if they had suspected of him being the ripper they would not have bailed him on the gross indecency charges.They would have kept him in and tried to build a case for murder whilst they had him in custody for the gross indecency offences

Sooo, you're saying Scotland Yard controlled the courts? Hannay bailed him, not Scotland Yard.

Secondly as to handwriting they had the chance to keep him in custody for up to 24 hours following his arrest. So if they had him under suspicion they had ample opportunity to have him give a handwriting sample and besides his handwriting would have been on the court documents he signed when being granted bail.

As I eluded to earlier, Anderson wanted everything on Tumblety. It may even have been Crowley who initiated the idea of handwriting samples, but Anderson initiated the communication.

Hi Abby Normal, I have info for you, but I can't do it until tomorrow.

Sincerely,
Mike

[Errata]

As to why Anderson asked for handwriting we can only speculate but many things Anderson has said and written must be treated with suspicion he seems to have been a man trying to be a legend in his own lifetime, and would appear to have gilded the lily on more than one occasion

Frankly, the chief occupation of homosexual petty criminals was blackmail. Up until the 50s it was just considered the price you paid for homosexual companionship. No one ever extorted an unreasonable amount, it was very civilized. You know, for blackmail. People generally just paid it. Cole Porter paid millions of dollars in blackmail, and at no point did he make any attempt to further screen his lovers.

Tumblety was assuredly a petty criminal, and likely a homosexual given his arrest. It's entirely possible he had blackmailed someone who didn't know the game and went to the police. Or someone important enough to not be able to risk either blackmail or payment. A handwriting comparison might have been a response to a very real note in the possession of the police. And if the handwriting matched, they could simply throw the book at him for the charges he was brought in on.

Since he got bail, if it were true I would imagine he just had the poor fortune to sleep with someone who was later blackmailed by someone else. He had the bad luck to be on someone's list. Or it did match, but for some reason they felt there was no way to get rid of him without him talking. I wouldn't even be that surprised if he was given that ticket to France to ensure he didn't talk.

In fact until about 3 years ago there was a bar in the Virgin Islands called the Mountbatten pub. According to the owners, so named because Lord Mountbatten gave their uncle the money to start the pub after he had an affair with George VI during his service in WWI. Which is a story you only get when you correctly reference the origin of the "Mountbatten" family. It may reopen. It's the economy. I don't know if it's true, but it's a great story and has the advantage to containing many truths (including the use of Mountbatten to clean up after the royal family). So who knows?

[Mayerling]

Firstly if they had suspected of him being the ripper they would not have bailed him on the gross indecency charges.They would have kept him in and tried to build a case for murder whilst they had him in custody for the gross indecency offences

Secondly as to handwriting they had the chance to keep him in custody for up to 24 hours following his arrest. So if they had him under suspicion they had ample opportunity to have him give a handwriting sample and besides his handwriting would have been on the court documents he signed when being granted bail.

As to why Anderson asked for handwriting we can only speculate but many things Anderson has said and written must be treated with suspicion he seems to have been a man trying to be a legend in his own lifetime, and would appear to have gilded the lily on more than one occasion

Hi Mike, Letchmere, and Trevor,

[and thank you Mike for the complement about my knowledge.]

Fact is I always try to fit these different patterns together to see if they make sense - and sometimes they don't.

But I can believe (considering how frequently the Yard goofed in this case - like the use of bloodhounds for example) that pieces of information were not properly passed to all the detectives and the police as they should have been. What occurred to me was how closely the business with Doc almost jars (chronologically) with the story of the disappearance and then discovered suicide of Montie. Somehow the rumors about Druitt would have had an affect on how the heads of the Yard might reconsider trying to build up a case against Doc. After all, Tumblety (as far as we know) had no body of intimates like the Druitt family to talk about what they suspected to the Yard. Once that is settled, meaning that the Yard looks into the matter of what Montie was up to - as far as they possibly can - they could decide he was a more likely candidate.

I did not realize that the morals charge would be insufficient to try to extradite Doc back. However, it might also have been insufficient by itself to keep Doc in gaol for a while longer to try to find grounds to charge for a more serious crime. And the fact that they were interested in his handwriting seems to point to some of the "Ripper correspondence" they had in mind. But a few years later, in 1892, despite the fact that they knew Neill Cream had written some threatening/"extortion" letters (one to Dr. Sir William Broadbent mentioning a point only the murderer would have known) Dr. Cream was allowed for nearly four or five weeks to be at liberty before he was arrested. Apparently the police could behave in such a lacksadaisical manner even after 1888.

Jeff

[Hunter]

As to why Anderson asked for handwriting we can only speculate but many things Anderson has said and written must be treated with suspicion he seems to have been a man trying to be a legend in his own lifetime, and would appear to have gilded the lily on more than one occasion

The sources for this were the Brooklyn Citizen and the San Francisco Daily Examiner. So how could Anderson be 'gilding the lily' in this instance when he isn't even the source?

In Ripperology, never let facts get in the way of bias.

Mike Hawley,

I don't see how it can be argued that Francis Tumblety was not a suspect to some degree and at least for a short time in late 1888. He would have ticked several boxes for the Victorian police and their perceptions at the time. But since this thread is more about whether he was actually the Ripper instead of a suspect... do you believe Francis Tumblety was really a serial murderer? And if so, why just this short spree in London and not other times in his long and well publicized life?

[mklhawley]

The sources for this were the Brooklyn Citizen and the San Francisco Daily Examiner. So how could Anderson be 'gilding the lily' in this instance when he isn't even the source?

In Ripperology, never let facts get in the way of bias.

Mike Hawley,

I don't see how it can be argued that Francis Tumblety was not a suspect to some degree and at least for a short time in late 1888. He would have ticked several boxes for the Victorian police and their perceptions at the time. But since this thread is more about whether he was actually the Ripper instead of a suspect... do you believe Francis Tumblety was really a serial murderer? And if so, why just this short spree in London and not other times in his long and well publicized life?

Hi Hunter,

When evaluating Tumblety based upon the evidence, such as Tumblety's letters to Hall Caine that Neil Storey discovered, if he was JTR, his motive would not have been sado-sexual. In view of this, having a constant sexual impulse for the rest of your life (continuing a murder spree throughout the decades) and the case of a homosexual serial killer attacking males (Jeffrey D.) are irrelevant. In my 'Tumblety the Woman Hater' article, I discuss how the FBI breaks down serial motives, and Tumblety fits a couple of others quite nicely. One is his unusual hatred of women and another was his anger of women being impostors. He believed young men were for older men and women led them astray. Both hatred and anger were two separate serial motives. There is a third, which I touch upon in my very first article, and that is 'personal gain'. I believe the evidence demonstrates Tumblety was a narcissist, and would have absolutely no guilt about women being murdered for a private/pesonal agenda.

Sincerely,
Mike

[curious]

Case Solved

Hi Hunter,

When evaluating Tumblety based upon the evidence, such as Tumblety's letters to Hall Caine that Neil Storey discovered, if he was JTR, his motive would not have been sado-sexual. In view of this, having a constant sexual impulse for the rest of your life (continuing a murder spree throughout the decades) and the case of a homosexual serial killer attacking males (Jeffrey D.) are irrelevant. In my 'Tumblety the Woman Hater' article, I discuss how the FBI breaks down serial motives, and Tumblety fits a couple of others quite nicely. One is his unusual hatred of women and another was his anger of women being impostors. He believed young men were for older men and women led them astray. Both hatred and anger were two separate serial motives. There is a third, which I touch upon in my very first article, and that is 'personal gain'. I believe the evidence demonstrates Tumblety was a narcissist, and would have absolutely no guilt about women being murdered for a private/pesonal agenda.

Sincerely,
Mike

Hello, Mike,
Very interesting post, but it caused my mind to wander down some strange byways.

Perhaps you have just allowed me to solve this case and explain another of the mysteries at the same time.

Bear with me.

You see, Tumblety met Monty Druitt and fell deeply in love with him, but MJD was bi-sexual and normally preferred both men and women older than himself -- not always, but most times.

Tumblety was so obsessed with Druitt, that he followed him around, and Tumblety's jealous fury at the women who misled his younger love resulted in the good sham-doctor murdering and mutilating the women we know as victims of JtR. Tumblety was skulking around in the shadows and thus never seen with any of the victims whom he caught by "ambushcade."

Druitt came to the sick realization of what was being done because of his connection with the women and just as terrifying was the thought that he himself might be in danger from Tumblety because of the obsession. Druitt confessed to his minister cousin that he was to blame for all those women's deaths, which led the minister to believe Druitt was the killer.

Druitt could not get over what had been done to Kelly, and had been assured by Tumblety that he would never be allowed to be free of him. The nightmares of the murders combined with the horror of Tumblety's love caused Druitt to drown himself in an attempt to put an end to the murders and Tumblety's "love" for him.

With his "love" forever out of his reach, Tumblety had no reason to remain in London, and with the charges hanging over him being a great reason to leave forever, he absconded.

see, tied up in a neat bow . . .

curious

[mklhawley]

Curious,

Are you sure you're not in film? This would make for an interesting script!

Mike

[curious]

Curious,

Are you sure you're not in film? This would make for an interesting script!

Mike

Thanks, more a writer, but film needs writers too, doesn't it?

I've just emailed it to my son, maybe he'll jump on it.

So, what do you think? some real possibilities there, at least on the surface.

[mklhawley]

Hi Curious,

So far, there's no evidence -at least that I know of- connecting Tumblety to Druitt. His later relationships with young men was to hire them as a personal secretary or traveling companion for a few years and dominate their life. He even did it with young Hall Caine. Driutt's life seemed never to have changed, so it doesn't fit the pattern, but certain connections do resonate. Maybe it's an area of future research.

Sincerely,
Mike

[Stewart P Evans]

A slight correction...

...
When evaluating Tumblety based upon the evidence, such as Tumblety's letters to Hall Caine that Neil Storey discovered,...
Mike

A slight correction here Mike, I know you like to be accurate.

Neil Storey didn't actually discover the Tumblety letters to Hall Caine...nor did I, although they are mentioned and quoted from in my 1995 book. The letters were discovered and accessed by researcher and biographer Vivien Allen over twenty years ago when researching her excellent book Hall Caine Portrait of a Victorian Romancer, Sheffield, Sheffield Academic Press, 1997. They were housed in the Manx Museum in their Hall Caine collection and were subject to a seventy-year embargo expiring in September 2001.

With the permission of Hall Caine's granddaughter, Mrs Elin Gill, of Greeba Castle, Isle of Man, Vivien was granted permission to access and quote from the letters. Vivien spent 'well over a year' going through the museum's then uncatalogued archive.