Was Tumblety in Jail during the Kelly Murder?

[Monty]

Hello Simon,

I thought rule No.1 was-

Don't bring something new to the table that irritates the establishment.hierarchy?

However I bow to your greater wisdom and concede.

Best wishes

Phil

Another inflaming post Phil which is against Casebook policy.

Who is the 'Establishment'.....the 'Hierachy'?

Its becoming tired old hat now. For goodness sake do that....bring something new.

Monty

[Jonathan H]

To Beowulf

It's not that simple (hint: the Walrus was Paul?)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GvpfM1NDHD0

[Phil Carter]

Another inflaming post Phil which is against Casebook policy.

Who is the 'Establishment'.....the 'Hierachy'?

Its becoming tired old hat now. For goodness sake do that....bring something new.

Monty

Hello Monty,

I forgot the 'LOL'. Twas a little bit of fun beween Simon and myself in adressed conversation.
My apologies if you felt victimised.
Don't know who rates themselves as hìerarchy.

Old hat? Yes, know THAT response well. Different strokes for different folks.

Have an exceedingly pleasant day.

[Monty]

Hello Monty,

I forgot the 'LOL'. Twas a little bit of fun beween Simon and myself in adressed conversation.
My apologies if you felt victimised.
Don't know who rates themselves as hìerarchy.

Old hat? Yes, know THAT response well. Different strokes for different folks.

Have an exceedingly pleasant day.

No need to apologise Phil, I certainly do not feel victimised.

I just find it disturbing that you, who claims to strive for the truth and answers for the sake of the victims, would continue to propogate such a myth.

You now state you do not know who rates themselves has hierachy, so how can you claim its existance?

All this talk, of hierachy, cabals, suppression etc has done nothing to enhance the field and drawn it into nigh on civil war. Its time to either provide evidence for these accusations, or put it these falsities to bed.

For the sake of the genre.

Enjoy your afternoon.

Monty

[Phil Carter]

No need to apologise Phil, I certainly do not feel victimised.

I just find it disturbing that you, who claims to strive for the truth and answers for the sake of the victims, would continue to propogate such a myth.

You now state you do not know who rates themselves has hierachy, so how can you claim its existance?

All this talk, of hierachy, cabals, suppression etc has done nothing to enhance the field and drawn it into nigh on civil war. Its time to either provide evidence for these accusations, or put it these falsities to bed.

For the sake of the genre.

Enjoy your afternoon.

Monty

Hello Monty, can we possibly take this somewhere else? As we are drifting off thread I fear? Please pm me if you wish, I am more than willing to discuss the matter further with you there.. however, please don't jump to conclusions.. it was a quip... between Simon and myself, addressed to him only. Ironic too. As far as the claims you list, they have nothing to do with the meaning of the quip.. that's tring to get blood from a stone... and this stone has no blood..

Mountain and molehills Monty. Storm in a teacup. Propagating a myth? Dear oh me. Poking fun between two correspondents at a possible impression given within the genre, would perhaps a better choice of explanation.
If anyone feels that they are touched by this quip and offended, well... that says much...

Cabals? Never said used the accusation actually word. Suppression? Never mentioned it. Please don't associate me with words I haven't used. So we can put that little associative word and mis-association with me using it to bed. LOL (See I remembered it this time)

What I would like to see, obviously not at this conference but a future one, is a debate. The motion being "This house believes that certain areas of Ripperology are limited to a select accepted few, and disdainful of anyone new wanting to feel they are genuine part of the genre" .
(I don't speak for myself, please note)

Because Monty, if you want to talk of cabals etc, could it possibly be, in all innocence perhaps, that this is the root of the problem? Ripperology isn't the tight little group it was 25 years ago.. and every day the grenre is expanding. In welcoming newbies, I even got accused of "grooming" newbies.. an associative word I hate and action I deny.. but I will welcome them and encourage them to be open in their thoughts and theories. I won't stop giving people something to chew over. That means anyone.

This is the age of instant knowledge. The genre itself lacks speed, imo. Deliverance of research. Yes, I realise that some things take time to assemble, and depend on outside help and responses, and I know the VAST majority present as soon as they possibly can (as you have shown recently).
But because the younger generation walk, talk, communicate and learn in double quick time, way faster than we did, it's a case of keeping them interested.. make them feel involved. I know people want instant answers, and I know this genre is ill equippped for it, the nature it it says so...

But as I said.. let's take this elsewhere for discussion. This isn't the thread or the place, imho.

Apologies to all for the diversion. Back to the thread, which is excellent.

Thanks for the kind wishes.. I've just completed part bone of a training course and swam 80 lengths of a pool. 80 more on Thursday, plus Life saving etc. Well, someone has to do it for the kids at school. I got volunteered.. again.. same old.. 16 years on the trot.
And I don't really like swimming!

Again, have an excellent day

best wishes

Phil

[Monty]

Hello Phil,

Nah, nah, no. You cant request to ‘take this somewhere else’ then proceed to carry on here, that’s unfair. Besides I dislike PM, I prefer it all out in the open.

For the past year or so you have quipped yourself across the boards taking a dig here and there and yes, you haven’t been alone. And please don’t treat me as a fool either Phil, your comments were very clear, don’t dig yourself in any deeper.

What I would like to see, obviously not at this conference but a future one, is a debate. The motion being "This house believes that certain areas of Ripperology are limited to a select accepted few, and disdainful of anyone new wanting to feel they are genuine part of the genre" .
(I don't speak for myself, please note)

You speak for others? Yours is the only voice I hear. Who said those words? What house believes? What accepted few? Give examples of this elitism. I find it very ironic that you gush and support a man who is the epitome of the word distain yet, at the same time, speak for the distained. However as you wish.

Whilst disagreements occur, they always have, there was always a camaraderie that endured. Well, endured until recently. Until the moment when a false cabal was created and some very good people were accused of falsifying documents or altering records with no whatsoever supporting these lies. These very good researchers and contributors have now been lost to the boards, and some also to the field, replaced by the sensationalists who hold more credence to supposition than to evidence.

You have a choice. To carry on this dangerous ‘quipping’, or to quit it and try and restore the damage that has been created with regarding conviviality in Ripperology. And before anyone points out the obvious…..I am trying also.

Time to end it.

Anyway....Tumbelty....

Monty

[Phil Carter]

Time to end it.

Monty

Hello Monty,

I will start up a thread in reply, then all can comment as they feel free.

I think that's the best way.

best wishes

Phil

[Batman]

1. Why did the Whitechapel murder investigators send Littlechild after Tumblety if he had been in jail during the time when MJK was murdered? Either they didn't know he was in jail or he wasn't.

2.Why didn't Tumblety just annouce that he was in jail on record at the time of the murders and put it to rest there and then?

3. Is not the reasonable solution that Tumblety wasn't in jail for the full period and jumped bail or something and so the police went after him?

As a note, skipping jail and killing right after isn't something unusual as Ted Bundy could attest too.

[c.d.]

Tumblety was nobody's fool and had certainly been around the block before as far as dealing with police. I find it very hard to believe that he would have been so naive as to think he was being questioned solely for his alleged homosexual activities. I think it would have certainly occurred to him that he was a suspect in the Ripper murders and that he was now being watched. Assuming that he was out on bail for him to then go out and kill Mary Kelly would have taken some major league cojones and his M.O. when faced with trouble seems to have been to flee. So to connect him to the Kelly murder seems like a real stretch.

c.d.

[Batman]

Assuming that he was out on bail for him to then go out and kill Mary Kelly would have taken some major league cojones and his M.O. when faced with trouble seems to have been to flee. So to connect him to the Kelly murder seems like a real stretch.

c.d.

How many times have you read the headline "murderer who got out of jail and killed again"? These were people found guilty, tried and sent to jail for murder who got out and did it again.

Then we have case histories of people killing while being under investigation.
- Gary Ridgeway. Was a suspect since the start and yet kept on killing.
- Sutcliffe. His photofit was plastered everywhere and he was wearing his killing boots while being interviewed by the police and also a 5 pound note was traced to his place of work.
- Ted Bundy. This guy would break out of jail and not just kill again, but take out a whole dorm full of student nurses.

Plus many more I think. They just seem to kill regardless but its a matter of degree as to what their comfort zone is. Tumblety seemed completely fine walking from the ship he sailed to America on knowing full well the authorities were after him there too.

[mklhawley]

Tumblety was nobody's fool and had certainly been around the block before as far as dealing with police. I find it very hard to believe that he would have been so naive as to think he was being questioned solely for his alleged homosexual activities. I think it would have certainly occurred to him that he was a suspect in the Ripper murders and that he was now being watched. Assuming that he was out on bail for him to then go out and kill Mary Kelly would have taken some major league cojones and his M.O. when faced with trouble seems to have been to flee. So to connect him to the Kelly murder seems like a real stretch.

c.d.

Hi guys,

I'll be gone for awhile, but I did want to make a quick post. Batman, Littlechild was not sent to America, it was Andrews, and it was not to chase Tumblety.

c.d.,

Great to see you post. I enjoy your replies. Some clarification since I research the heck out of this guy. Just as the London correspondent reported, Tumblety was arrested on suspicion, so Tumblety knew immediately he was arrested involving the Ripper murders. Because they re-arrested him on the gross indecency charges, he knew they had nothing on him with regards to the Ripper murders. It is a misconception that Tumblety was a coward. He took chances all the time, especially in business.

Please excuse my delay in responding in the future.

Sincerely,

Mike

[Batman]

Okay, so Littlechild just names Dr. T/D in a letter and someone else had gone to America but not to chase after Tumblety?

So Tumblety was not chased to America and Whitechapel investigators had nothing to do with sending anyone after him?

I'd like to know more because this addresses the 3 questions I have.

[RockySullivan]

Tumblety was nobody's fool and had certainly been around the block before as far as dealing with police. I find it very hard to believe that he would have been so naive as to think he was being questioned solely for his alleged homosexual activities. I think it would have certainly occurred to him that he was a suspect in the Ripper murders and that he was now being watched. Assuming that he was out on bail for him to then go out and kill Mary Kelly would have taken some major league cojones and his M.O. when faced with trouble seems to have been to flee. So to connect him to the Kelly murder seems like a real stretch.

c.d.

I wonder if the reason Mary Kelly was killed indoors was because the ripper knew he was being watched and couldn't take the risk of killing on the street. Perhaps the ripper just had something different in mind for Mary Kelly , after the all the mutilations are a whole lot more violent

Edit: personally I have my suspicions that Mary was in the process of becoming a whole bunch pieces and the killer was interrupted or something made him abort.

[mklhawley]

Okay, so Littlechild just names Dr. T/D in a letter and someone else had gone to America but not to chase after Tumblety?

So Tumblety was not chased to America and Whitechapel investigators had nothing to do with sending anyone after him?

I'd like to know more because this addresses the 3 questions I have.

Hi Batman,

Per Roger Palmer, the plan to have Andrews go to America was formulated when Tumblety had yet to sneak out of England. Just as Sir Robert Anderson was soliciting US chiefs of police for information on Ripper suspect Francis Tumblety, Andrews was doing the same and personally taking the information back. Was Tumblety a significant enough suspect in November 1888 to have Andrews do this? He was significant enough to have the Assistant Commissioner involve himself. Scotland Yard had no other big suspects at the time. Druitt and Kosminski came on the radar screen later, at the same time Tumblety fell off the radar screen when McKenzie was murdered (at the time Scotland Yard was convinced McKenzie was a Ripper victim and since Tumblety was in New York, living a half mile from Carrie Brown, he couldn't have been in their eyes).

Sincerely,

Mike

[Batman]

Per Roger Palmer, the plan to have Andrews go to America was formulated when Tumblety had yet to sneak out of England. Just as Sir Robert Anderson was soliciting US chiefs of police for information on Ripper suspect Francis Tumblety, Andrews was doing the same and personally taking the information back.

Okay, that makes sense now. So they were already investigating American connections when Tumblety appears and then dissappears from Whitechapel to the USA during the murders where the investigators had already setup a man on the ground for such things.