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  • Tumblety's Accent & Streeter

    Greetings all,

    There are numerous conflicting documents about where Francis Tumblety was born, either in Ireland or in Canada. An article in the Brockville Times out of Brockville, Ontario, Canada, from 1903 claims he was born in Brockville, but a Brockville historian I approached so far cannot find documents to back this up. In my opinion, the most convincing research by ripperologists, such as Tim Riordan, show him born in Ireland around 1830 and immigrating to America around 1847.

    There is only one more thing that nags on me, and I hope someone here can clarify. Tumblety did not have an Irish accent as a boy (if you accept the Streeter interview), and if he came over around 16 or 17 years of age he should have. According to professor P. D. Ingram of Penn State University:

    ]“There are two kinds of accent. One is first language accent, or variation in the use of one's native language. Variations may be related to the geographical area or cultural group to which one belongs. Examples include a Maine accent, an Appalachian accent, a Jewish accent, and Black English. Lippi-Green (1997) shares an example, John Kennedy's Boston variety of English…. The degree to which a person can substitute one accent for another is severely dependent upon the age at which the second language is learned (Lenneberg, 1967). While children can often learn a second or third language with ease, the same is not true for many adults. A number of scientists postulate that at some point during adolescence we move past the developmental stage for language acquisition (Johnson & Newport, 1989; Lenneberg, 1967; Long, 1990). A person's distinctive intonation and phonological features (accent) are hard-wired in the brain and are difficult to change. It is unrealistic to expect a person who learned to speak English as an adult to sound just like a native English speaker, regardless as to commitment, intelligence, and motivation. People such as Henry Kissinger, while speaking English very clearly, never lose their accent [He arrived in the United States around age 12 and speaks English with a German accent. His brother, two years younger, has no accent]."

    If this is correct, Francis Tumblety should have had a “first language” Irish accent, especially as a young boy living with adults born and raised in Ireland. The best window we have of Tumblety as a young teenager is Captain W. C. Streeter, a supposed canal boat captain out of Rochester, New York. According to Streeter in an interview with The Rochester Democrat and Republican in early December 1888, he knew Francis Tumblety as a boy “something like 15 years old” when Tumblety would catch a ride on his boat to sell questionable books and papers. He stated:

    “I think Frank was born in Rochester. He had no foreign accent when I first met him, and I understood at the time that he was a Rochester boy…. He was about five feet ten inches high, of rather slight build, and fine-looking, but evidently avoided society. I thought then that his mind had been affected by those books he sold, and am not at all surprised to hear his name mentioned in connection with the Whitechapel murders."

    This interview is suspect, though. Simon Wood has convincingly pointed out that W.C. Streeter was not a canal boat captain in Rochester, NY, at the time. Now, there was a Ben Streeter fits the bill. Either the actual W.C. Streeter was interviewed in 1888 and lied or Ben Streeter was in fact interviewed and the reporter messed up. I do have a historical paper (Rochester History - At the Rapids on the Genesee Settlement at Castletown by Ruth Rosenberg-Naparstek) that states Ben Streeter was interviewed on numerous occasions about his early days as a canal boat captain in and around Rochester, NY. Ben Streeter was a rough and tough character, getting into many fights and into trouble with the law. It would not be out of the question for Rochester reporters to approach Ben Streeter. Also, it would not be out of the question for Ben Streeter to allow Tumblety on his boat and sell questionable material.

    Tumblety’s skill at being a chameleon should also be noted. It is interesting that when Francis Tumblety returned to the U.S. after the Whitechapel murders in 1888 (his stay was from June to November), he possessed an English accent. In February 1889, he gave an interview to The New York World and the reporter stated, "Dr. Tumblety talks in a quick, nervous fashion, with a decidedly English accent, and at times, when describing his treatment by the English police, he would get up from his chair and walk rapidly around the room until he became calm.” It is not out of the question for a person like Francis Tumblety to easily change his accent, even at an early age.

    Any thoughts?

    Sincerely,

    Mike
    The Ripper's Haunts/JtR Suspect Dr. Francis Tumblety (Sunbury Press)
    http://www.michaelLhawley.com

  • #2
    Originally posted by mklhawley View Post
    Greetings all,

    There are numerous conflicting documents about where Francis Tumblety was born, either in Ireland or in Canada. An article in the Brockville Times out of Brockville, Ontario, Canada, from 1903 claims he was born in Brockville, but a Brockville historian I approached so far cannot find documents to back this up. In my opinion, the most convincing research by ripperologists, such as Tim Riordan, show him born in Ireland around 1830 and immigrating to America around 1847.

    There is only one more thing that nags on me, and I hope someone here can clarify. Tumblety did not have an Irish accent as a boy (if you accept the Streeter interview), and if he came over around 16 or 17 years of age he should have. According to professor P. D. Ingram of Penn State University:

    ]“There are two kinds of accent. One is first language accent, or variation in the use of one's native language. Variations may be related to the geographical area or cultural group to which one belongs. Examples include a Maine accent, an Appalachian accent, a Jewish accent, and Black English. Lippi-Green (1997) shares an example, John Kennedy's Boston variety of English…. The degree to which a person can substitute one accent for another is severely dependent upon the age at which the second language is learned (Lenneberg, 1967). While children can often learn a second or third language with ease, the same is not true for many adults. A number of scientists postulate that at some point during adolescence we move past the developmental stage for language acquisition (Johnson & Newport, 1989; Lenneberg, 1967; Long, 1990). A person's distinctive intonation and phonological features (accent) are hard-wired in the brain and are difficult to change. It is unrealistic to expect a person who learned to speak English as an adult to sound just like a native English speaker, regardless as to commitment, intelligence, and motivation. People such as Henry Kissinger, while speaking English very clearly, never lose their accent [He arrived in the United States around age 12 and speaks English with a German accent. His brother, two years younger, has no accent]."

    If this is correct, Francis Tumblety should have had a “first language” Irish accent, especially as a young boy living with adults born and raised in Ireland. The best window we have of Tumblety as a young teenager is Captain W. C. Streeter, a supposed canal boat captain out of Rochester, New York. According to Streeter in an interview with The Rochester Democrat and Republican in early December 1888, he knew Francis Tumblety as a boy “something like 15 years old” when Tumblety would catch a ride on his boat to sell questionable books and papers. He stated:

    “I think Frank was born in Rochester. He had no foreign accent when I first met him, and I understood at the time that he was a Rochester boy…. He was about five feet ten inches high, of rather slight build, and fine-looking, but evidently avoided society. I thought then that his mind had been affected by those books he sold, and am not at all surprised to hear his name mentioned in connection with the Whitechapel murders."

    This interview is suspect, though. Simon Wood has convincingly pointed out that W.C. Streeter was not a canal boat captain in Rochester, NY, at the time. Now, there was a Ben Streeter fits the bill. Either the actual W.C. Streeter was interviewed in 1888 and lied or Ben Streeter was in fact interviewed and the reporter messed up. I do have a historical paper (Rochester History - At the Rapids on the Genesee Settlement at Castletown by Ruth Rosenberg-Naparstek) that states Ben Streeter was interviewed on numerous occasions about his early days as a canal boat captain in and around Rochester, NY. Ben Streeter was a rough and tough character, getting into many fights and into trouble with the law. It would not be out of the question for Rochester reporters to approach Ben Streeter. Also, it would not be out of the question for Ben Streeter to allow Tumblety on his boat and sell questionable material.

    Tumblety’s skill at being a chameleon should also be noted. It is interesting that when Francis Tumblety returned to the U.S. after the Whitechapel murders in 1888 (his stay was from June to November), he possessed an English accent. In February 1889, he gave an interview to The New York World and the reporter stated, "Dr. Tumblety talks in a quick, nervous fashion, with a decidedly English accent, and at times, when describing his treatment by the English police, he would get up from his chair and walk rapidly around the room until he became calm.” It is not out of the question for a person like Francis Tumblety to easily change his accent, even at an early age.

    Any thoughts?

    Sincerely,

    Mike
    By the date on this, Mike, you probably moved on, but I found your post interesting.

    I've lived in various localities in both America and Europe and picked up the accents of those places, partly from just being there and partly in an effort to be understood by the locals. Once those accents find a way into your vocabulary, they often remain to one extent or another.

    Keep in mind that Tumblety had lived for some time in England before. What's more, if the spoken word of his childhood had been with an Irish accent, he may have been quite comfortable with the softer pronunciations.

    A close friend of my son's was born and raised in Switzerland and came here as a teenager. Within a year, he had virtually no accent at all, except for an occasional mistake with "v's" and "w's", which is understandable considering the language conflicts.

    We can only guess about what the "questionable" publications covered (or didn't as the case may be...) but that they had twisted his mind, according to Streeter, at such an early age is a fascinating insight. Not that it is true of most who view "questionable" material, but many serial killers have pointed to that as an influence in their developement.

    He strikes me as being a kid from poor circumstances, who had little supervision or real care. He had to be street smart and self-sustaining. He applied his apparent enterprising inner talents, mixed his lust for money, status and power in the style of a true grifter, con man.

    Based on the testimony of people like Streeter and what Tumblety became, he spent his years trying to blot out the stain, the shame of his childhood. Yet no amount of money, fancy clothing or title could mask the inner corruption the formed his perceptions of people and life. He lived in the dark underbelly of society and his trade always put him at odds with the law.

    An English accent in America can bestow on the speaker an appearance of both charm and intelligence. We can only imagine that Tumblety would crave that.

    I hope this helps.

    Comment


    • #3
      Tumblety was Irish

      For details of Tumblety’s Dublin birth in 1831 and the exact date of his arrival on the Irish Famine ship, the Ashburton, from Dublin to New York in 1847, refer to the Notes section of Timothy B Riordan’s book: “Prince of Quacks: The Notorious Life of Dr Francis Tumblety, Charlatan and Ripper Suspect”, published 2009.
      It states that Francis, Patrick (James), Ann, and mother Margaret sailed from Dublin on the Famine Ship (otherwise known as a coffin ship) the "Ashburton" in 1847. This ship left the Dublin docks on May 26 and arrived in New York on June 21, 1847. The ship's record states that Francis Tumblety was 17 years old at the time. The family name is written in the record as "Tumbleton" perhaps because of illiteracy or because it was not written by anyone in the family but rather by a ship's attendant. This was common practice on coffin ships as it was assumed at boarding that most passengers were illiterate, therefore the name was written by the attendant "as it sounded" rather than how it was spelled.
      The above-mentioned book also suggests that father James and Francis' brother Lawrence travelled to New York in 1844 - three years earlier. This too was common. Members of a family left Ireland for America and sent money home so that others could follow them to the US. The Great Famine which began here in 1845 was a cause of massive emigration. One million people are estimated to have starved here in Ireland and one million others died aboard the coffin ships over a period of five years from 1845. Could the horrors and poverty he witnessed in Dublin and the disease and deaths aboard the Ashburton (which took four weeks to get to the USA) have affected Franics adversely? Records show that dead bodies were thrown overboard during sailing to avoid spread of disease. It may have influenced his choice of profession as a quack doctor. It probably influenced his drive to become rich (so that he never had to endure poverty again).
      Also, (concerning his date of birth) the only direct statement Francis Tumblety ever made about his age or his place of birth was in his 1872 memorial to the "Joint Claims Commission" in which he stated that his date of birth was 1931 and his birthplace Dublin. Also mentioned in the new book listed at start of this post.
      Bye for now from Dublin, Ireland.
      Last edited by Siobhan Patricia Mulcahy; 07-23-2010, 03:49 AM. Reason: spelling mistakes
      Best,

      Siobhán
      Blog: http://siobhanpatriciamulcahy.blogspot.com/

      Comment


      • #4
        Tumblety's non-Irish accent

        Hi Mike,
        According to International Linguistics Community Online, our accents change over time as our needs change and as our sense of who we are changes and develops. Accents can be expected to change until we are in our early twenties. This is usually the time we come to some sort of decision about who we are. But even after that, if we want (and need) to change our accent, we can. This usually happens without much effort if we move to a new place, mix with different people, or develop new aspirations.
        If Tumblety really did arrive off that famine ship from Ireland (Riordan's book) in his late teens, then he would have had an an Irish accent on arrival but as we know he wanted to make money and to do that he had to adapt and assimilate into the society he was living in.
        Just as he left behind his "dirty, uneducated" (according to Rochester neighbour) persona to become a well-dressed dandy, so too he must have quickly adapted his accent so that he could con money out of as many innocent people as possible as a "herb doctor".
        In some of the earlier newspaper reports about Tumblety, he put adverts in the local papers to say which days and where his "medical" demonstrations would take place in Rochester New York and other areas. To be able to con a big audience he would have had to sell himself in a "neutral accent" to be clearly understood and to obtain the highest responses (money wise) from the crowd. This might explain his non-Irish accent . He got rid of it quick for financial expediency.
        Also, in New York in the late 1840s and early 1850s, the Irish were mostly frowned upon because hundreds of thousands of us arrived in New York to escape the famine at home. They were all poor and mostly but not all, uneducated and illiterate. This was perhaps another reason why Tumblety dropped an accent that would associate himself with the rest of the mob. This is speculative but possible!
        Hope it helps,
        Best to you.
        Best,

        Siobhán
        Blog: http://siobhanpatriciamulcahy.blogspot.com/

        Comment


        • #5
          Hi Siobhan,

          In reference to both of your posts, my Irish ancestors came to the US because of The Great Famine, and my grandmother used to comment upon her family never speaking about that part of their past. They certainly wanted to separate themselves from it, and I'm sure the Tumbletys were no different. As you commented upon, the impact upon these people must have been near breaking point. As I wrote on a different thread, Francis Tumblety is a poster child for aggressive narcissism. Did this experience cause his pathological behavior? Most likely no, because most of the other Irish immigrants did not become pathological. I bet he already had a loose nut in his brain prior to this and the famine/immigration experience only intensified his narcissistic tendencies.

          An interesting point about narcissists, rules of behavior do not govern them like other people, because they believe society's rules do not apply to them. "Believe" is the wrong word, though, since pathological means they do not have the ability to recognize anything other than self. When they seem to follow these rules, it is only for personal gain, yet they have no problems breaking the rules. In Tumblety's public life, he seemed to follow the rules (although, pushing the limits due to his business), but his private seedy life was a different story. Luckily, his narcissistic rages caused some of this to make the papers (as you even posted). When Tumblety was in the streets of Whitechapel and neighboring London districts during the killings as he admitted, he moved around "as to not bring attention to himself". He was clearly operating within the rules he applied to himself in his private life.

          In support of your comments about accents, recall when Francis Tumblety was interviewed in February 1889 by the New York World reporter, the reporter stated Tumblety STILL had a british accent. He certainly molded to his environment while in Whitechapel in 1888, and it looks like it took him a few months to change his accent back to a Brooklynite.

          Sincerely,

          Mike
          The Ripper's Haunts/JtR Suspect Dr. Francis Tumblety (Sunbury Press)
          http://www.michaelLhawley.com

          Comment


          • #6
            See Riordan's view on Tumblety's accent

            Originally posted by mklhawley View Post
            In support of your comments about accents, recall when Francis Tumblety was interviewed in February 1889 by the New York World reporter, the reporter stated Tumblety STILL had a british accent. He certainly molded to his environment while in Whitechapel in 1888, and it looks like it took him a few months to change his accent back to a Brooklynite.
            Hi Mike,
            I already read your piece on Narcissism - fascinating!
            You might be interested in hearing what Tim Riordan said about Tumbelty's accent. He answered 5 questions on his book (including T's accent) in another JtR forum which is here:


            It confirms pretty much what you said in your last post. Best to you.
            Last edited by Siobhan Patricia Mulcahy; 07-25-2010, 06:04 PM. Reason: Spelling
            Best,

            Siobhán
            Blog: http://siobhanpatriciamulcahy.blogspot.com/

            Comment


            • #7
              Tumblety's Victorian persona

              Mike,
              Apologies, the Riordan reference (in the link posted above) refers to Tumblety's invented "Victorian" persona which is a bit similar but not quite about his invented accent! Best,
              Best,

              Siobhán
              Blog: http://siobhanpatriciamulcahy.blogspot.com/

              Comment


              • #8
                Tumblety's Dublin address?

                Hi folks,
                I have done a check in Griffith's Valuations 1848 (National Library of Ireland) for the Tumblety family address and may have come up with something. Griffith Valuations contains the names and addresses of all landowners, landlords, householders and tenants (renting property) in Ireland etc starting in the year 1846.
                In the year 1847 when FT's mother and sisters left Ireland with Francis on a famine ship (see reference in earlier post) I found a reference to a Francis Tumblety (1846-7) living in Swords Co Dublin.
                The only mention FT ever made about his exact origins was that he was born near Dublin (Swords is near Dublin) in the year 1831.
                As FT would have only been 17 years old at the time, I was puzzled by the fact that his name and not his father or older brothers are named as head of household on the address, but Riordan's book says that his father and older brother(s) probably left Ireland in 1844 therefore they would not have been listed in the household. Also, Catholic women were not allowed to have their name on the deeds, or lease of a property at this time. If there were no males in the household, then the closest male relative or male friend was obliged to have his name on the document as head of the household. This would explain why Francis, even though a teenager, would have been listed as the main man of the house (esp if dad and bros were living in USA since 1844).
                The exact details of the record I found are as follows:
                Tenant
                Family Name : Tumblety
                Forename : Francis
                Landlord
                Family Name: Long
                Forename: John
                Location
                Place Name: Church Road
                Townland: Town Parks
                Union: Balrothery (Swords)
                Barony: Nethercoss
                County: Dublin
                Printing date (of record): 1847

                For anyone wanting to trace Irish ancestors who may have left Ireland around this time 1846/7, you can check them (and their location) at www.askaboutireland.ie then click on Griffith Valuations button to search by Family Name, County in Ireland etc. The service is free of charge.

                Best,
                Siobhan
                Last edited by Siobhan Patricia Mulcahy; 08-25-2010, 03:52 PM. Reason: Added a sentence at end
                Best,

                Siobhán
                Blog: http://siobhanpatriciamulcahy.blogspot.com/

                Comment


                • #9
                  Thanks, Siobhan. Where is the Griffith Valuations button? I didn't see it.

                  c.d.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by c.d. View Post
                    Thanks, Siobhan. Where is the Griffith Valuations button? I didn't see it.

                    c.d.
                    Hi c.d.
                    It's a little down the Home Page, right-hand side, under Related Services. Griffiths Valuation. Genealogy archive.
                    Carol

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Found it!. Thanks, Carol.

                      c.d.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by Siobhan Patricia Mulcahy View Post
                        Hi folks,
                        I have done a check in Griffith's Valuations 1848 (National Library of Ireland) for the Tumblety family address and may have come up with something. Griffith Valuations contains the names and addresses of all landowners, landlords, householders and tenants (renting property) in Ireland etc starting in the year 1846.
                        In the year 1847 when FT's mother and sisters left Ireland with Francis on a famine ship (see reference in earlier post) I found a reference to a Francis Tumblety (1846-7) living in Swords Co Dublin.
                        The only mention FT ever made about his exact origins was that he was born near Dublin (Swords is near Dublin) in the year 1831.
                        As FT would have only been 17 years old at the time, I was puzzled by the fact that his name and not his father or older brothers are named as head of household on the address, but Riordan's book says that his father and older brother(s) probably left Ireland in 1844 therefore they would not have been listed in the household. Also, Catholic women were not allowed to have their name on the deeds, or lease of a property at this time. If there were no males in the household, then the closest male relative or male friend was obliged to have his name on the document as head of the household. This would explain why Francis, even though a teenager, would have been listed as the main man of the house (esp if dad and bros were living in USA since 1844).
                        The exact details of the record I found are as follows:
                        Tenant
                        Family Name : Tumblety
                        Forename : Francis
                        Landlord
                        Family Name: Long
                        Forename: John
                        Location
                        Place Name: Church Road
                        Townland: Town Parks
                        Union: Balrothery (Swords)
                        Barony: Nethercoss
                        County: Dublin
                        Printing date (of record): 1847

                        For anyone wanting to trace Irish ancestors who may have left Ireland around this time 1846/7, you can check them (and their location) at www.askaboutireland.ie then click on Griffith Valuations button to search by Family Name, County in Ireland etc. The service is free of charge.

                        Best,
                        Siobhan

                        Awesome find Siobhan! It is interesting that Francis Tumblety's father and brother came to America just prior to the great famine of 1845. Was Ireland a place of famine just prior to this? Also, are there many resources for Swords Co between 1831 and 1847?

                        Mike
                        The Ripper's Haunts/JtR Suspect Dr. Francis Tumblety (Sunbury Press)
                        http://www.michaelLhawley.com

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by mklhawley View Post
                          Awesome find Siobhan! It is interesting that Francis Tumblety's father and brother came to America just prior to the great famine of 1845. Was Ireland a place of famine just prior to this? Also, are there many resources for Swords Co between 1831 and 1847?

                          Mike
                          Hi Mike,
                          There are other resources such as "Poor House" records which are only available on microfilm here in Dublin. Unfortunately, the Poor House records for what is now the (26 counties) Republic of Ireland are a bit sparse. The records for (6 counties of) Northern Ireland are much more detailed.
                          Also there are Parish registers (Catholic families only) available as far back as the 1700s and covering the timeframe you mention above, but again, they are only available in the National Library of Ireland (Dublin) on microfilm. I've tracked down the Parish records (baptisms, marriages etc) for Swords (Microfilm No. P.6616) for the relevant timeframe but have yet to check through it. Interesting that it has three sixes in it! Will keep you posted if I find anything of interest. It is hundreds of pages long...
                          As for pre-Famine Ireland, it was a pretty dismal place if you were Catholic - little or no access to education or the professions, no right to own property but you could rent. No wonder so many left even before the Famine! You probably already know this but our Census of population records (which would have been very useful to track Tumblety clan) were destroyed during the Irish Civil War in early 1920s.
                          There are other resources online, www.irishorigins.com (but you have to pay for service) and I think there is a register of electors out there too. Only Catholic families with money (large incomes) were entitled to vote during the mid 1800s. Tumblety clan unlikely to be on it as they didn't seem to have a halfpenny between them when they lived here.
                          Best,
                          Siobhan
                          Last edited by Siobhan Patricia Mulcahy; 08-25-2010, 07:12 PM. Reason: Added sentence
                          Best,

                          Siobhán
                          Blog: http://siobhanpatriciamulcahy.blogspot.com/

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Famines prior to 1847

                            Hi Mike,
                            Forgot to answer bit about Famines prior to 1847. Yes, there were numerous famines due the failure of the potato crop. There was one in 1841 and again in 1844. I know Wikipedia is not supposed to be a reliable source but if you key in "Irish Potato Famine AND wiki" into Google search, you will get a very good history of what happened and the dates of the various crop failures, deaths, emigration and all the rest of it.
                            Best,
                            Best,

                            Siobhán
                            Blog: http://siobhanpatriciamulcahy.blogspot.com/

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Hi all

                              To save people research time, Joe Chetcuti has asked me to refer you to posts 3 and 4 on this thread :





                              Also, the baptismal records of the St Colmcilles Church in Town Park of Swords (County Dublin) have been checked.

                              Comment

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