The 'argument AGAINST Tumblety' debate thread

[mklhawley]

There are other examples of Tumblety's violence but here's the last one in his Rap sheet:
1890 (December) Washington – arrested and charged with vicious “assault” - striking a man with the metal top of his walking stick so hard that his “cheekbone was revealed through the skin”. Tumblety is aged 60 by this time. When searched, police discover that Tumblety has thousands of dollars worth of diamond jewellery on his person along with several hundred dollars in cash. Charges dropped. Police explain that the man Tumblety assaulted was even “more suspicious a character” than Tumblety.
This is the last known arrest on record. (from Riordan's book)
If this is how vicious Tumblety was in his 60s, then how vicious or violent was he when he was young?

Hi Siobhan,

Since I wrote that I created a thread on Francis Tumblety as an aggressive narcissist. Your last example fits the profile. Check it out.

http://forum.casebook.org/showthread.php?t=4561

[Siobhan Patricia Mulcahy]

Tumblety’s sexuality

Many Ripperologists have rejected Tumblety as JtR because of his homosexuality but I think this is an error. There have been homosexual, bisexual and one lesbian (listed here) serial killers who have murdered the opposite sex. The people listed below are Americans with the exception of Marc Dutroux (Belgium) because he is quite recent. There are also examples in other countries of homosexual or bisexual killers who killed the opposite sex, therefore Tumblety should not be excluded as a JtR suspect just because of his sexual preferences.
Have a look at this list:


Ed Gein (August 27, 1906 – July 26, 1984) A repressed homosexual who wanted to become a woman, his character became a central element in films, including Alfred Hitchcock’s thriller Psycho and the character of Buffalo Bill in The Silence of the Lambs. His domineering mother taught him about the evils of women and sex and he became an effeminate and shy boy. Gein eventually became a serial killer who skinned his female victims, exhumed corpses, and decorated his home with parts of his victims’ bodies.
When police finally caught up with him, they found a variety of gruesome sights — hanging corpses with their throats and heads missing, bowls made of skulls, pieces of jewellery made of human skin. The most shocking discovery was perhaps his mother’s heart, which was found in a pan on the stove. Police counted 15 women as his victims. Gein was immprisoned and died of cancer aged 78.
Albert Fish (May 19, 1870 – January 16, 1936) Known as America’s most vile paedophile, serial killer, and cannibal. A bisexual whose wife considered him a wonderful husband and father. He had entered into homosexual relationships as young as 12 which led to male prostitution, which continued after his marriage. He raped, killed and cannibalized boys and girls. Convicted and executed by electric chair 1936.
Henry Lee Lucas (August 23, 1936– March 13, 2001) A bisexual who killed his first victim - his violently abusive mother – in his early 20s. In 1976, he began a homosexual relationship with Ottis Elwood Toole lasting more than 6 years with Toole slaughtering gay men when angry with Lucas. Lucas eventually married Toole's young niece. In Florida 1982, he stabbed her to death, dismembered her body, and left her carcass in a field. Died of heart failure in prison aged 64.
Aileen Wuornos (February 29, 1956 – October 9, 2002) a lesbian serial killer who was the subject of the film Monster. Sometimes helped by her lover Tyria Moore, whom Wuornos supported with money she earned prostituting herself with men, Wuornos murdered at least seven male "Johns" in 1989-90 before being caught, convicted and then executed in the US.
Marc Dutroux (born November 6, 1956) a bisexual Belgian serial killer, child molester and criminal. Worked as a male prostitute serving men before he met and married his first wife. He was convicted of having kidnapped, tortured and sexually abused six girls during 1995 and 1996, ranging in age from 8 to 19 years, four of whom he murdered. Currently serving life sentence in prison.

[Ben]

Hi Siobhan,

With respect, you're made several blanket statements with regard to the sexual preferences of several known serial killers, presumably in an effort to enhance the suspect status of Francis Tumblety, and with very little evidence. Ed Gein a "repressed homosexual"? Are you really sure this has been established as fact, or even a vague likelihood? You describe both Albert Fish and Marc Dutroux as "bisexual", but again, who has made this determination and on what compelling evidential basis? Neither assumption seems to conform to mainstream thinking on the subject. There is very little evidence that Henry Lee Lucas was "bisexual", and doubt exists as to whether or not he can really be considered a serial killer in the conventionally accepted sense of the term.

And where is the evidence that Toole and Lucas were a homosexual serial killing duo?

I'm not usually a fan of factoids and truisms, but from what I've ascertained, there is at least some weight behind the suggestion that serial killers, for the most part, target the objects of their sexual preferences.

Best regards,
Ben

[Siobhan Patricia Mulcahy]

And where is the evidence that Toole and Lucas were a homosexual serial killing duo?

I'm not usually a fan of factoids and truisms, but from what I've ascertained, there is at least some weight behind the suggestion that serial killers, for the most part, target the objects of their sexual preferences.

Best regards,
Ben

Hi Ben,
Thanks for your comments even though you disagree with me!
It is precisely because Scotland Yard and the London police used generally accepted principals that the JtR killer was never caught!

“All generalisations are dangerous, even this one.”
Alexandre Dumas, French writer.

As to your bit about Lucas…It is known that he killed his mother and his wife. He had a 6 year homosexual relationship with a guy called Toole. Therefore he was attracted to men (as Tumblety was) and killed women. Nowhere did I say Lucas killed gay men. He didn’t. His boyfriend Toole killed gay men.

You are right about one thing. In my list of killers who were (gay/bisexual) who killed the opposite sex, I should have named my sources. Thanks for the tip.

My sources were:
1. Gay Serial Killers website
2. American serial killers website
3. Wikipedia

Each source confirmed that the killers in my original list were either gay/bisexual and killed the opposite sex.
Tumblety was attracted to men but this does not exclude him from having killed women, therefore he is still a viable suspect.
Best to you,
Siobhan

[Ben]

Hi Siobhan,

Thanks for your response!

It is precisely because Scotland Yard and the London police used generally accepted principals that the JtR killer was never caught!

Scotland Yard and the London police couldn't have harboured any "generally accepted principals" concerning serial killers for the simple reason that they were an unknown entity in 1888. We, on the other hand, have the benefit of knowledge from decades of serial crime upon which to base our assessments. On the other hand, one could argue that the investigative forces' lack of familiarity with serial crime in 1888 may well have led to skewed preconceptions on their part as to the likely nature of the beast.

As for Henry Lee Lucas's alleged homosexual relationship with Toole, my understanding is that it was Toole himself who provided the claim for this, and that it should be treated with caution accordingly. Toole was unquestionably a homosexual serial killer, whereas Lucas's only proven victim was his mother.

I appreciate you providing your sources, but the preponderance of evidence does somewhat militate against the assertion that Gein, Fish and Lucas were unquestionably bisexual or homosexual. The issue of an offender's sexuality shouldn't permit us to exclude a suspect completely, but the indications are that Tumblety was homosexual (not bisexual), and that in the overwhelmingly vast majority of cases, offenders target victims of their sexual preference. This, in combination with other factors, qualifies Tumblety for the "probably not" pile, in my view, but your mileage may vary!

Best regards,
Ben

[The Good Michael]

Siobhan,

That description sounds like an older guy who didn't take any crap from local thugs. He seems almost like a person to aspire to. Of course I'm taking this incident in isolation.

Mike

[Garry Wroe]

Many Ripperologists have rejected Tumblety as JtR because of his homosexuality but I think this is an error. There have been homosexual, bisexual and one lesbian (listed here) serial killers who have murdered the opposite sex. The people listed below are Americans with the exception of Marc Dutroux (Belgium) because he is quite recent. There are also examples in other countries of homosexual or bisexual killers who killed the opposite sex, therefore Tumblety should not be excluded as a JtR suspect just because of his sexual preferences.

With respect, Siobhan, the flaw in this particular line of logic is that, in order to make the case for the homosexual Tumblety as a viable Ripper suspect, you have provided examples of four definitely ascribed bisexuals as well as that of a man who, to say the least, was sexually amorphous. In other words, each selected victims from within his or her sexual ingroup and cannot, therefore, be cited as an example of a lust murderer who crossed the sexual ingroup/outgroup divide. To make a more compelling argument for Tumblety, I would suggest that you examine the case of Colin Ireland(*) – though I strongly suspect that time will reveal this to be an exception that proves the rule.

Regards.

Garry Wroe.


(*) Although Colin Ireland killed five homosexual males, he doesn’t, as far as I’m aware, fall into the category of lust murderer.

[Siobhan Patricia Mulcahy]

With respect, Siobhan, the flaw in this particular line of logic is that, in order to make the case for the homosexual Tumblety as a viable Ripper suspect, you have provided examples of four definitely ascribed bisexuals as well as that of a man who, to say the least, was sexually amorphous.
Garry Wroe.

Hi Gary and Ben (again),
Tumblety may have been bisexual as he said he married and then turned against women because his wife was a prostitute..(according to Dunham who was a bit of a chancer but not always) and okay, T was a liar and chancer but if someone could only find his marriage certificate ... If he did marry it would have been probably in Rochester in late 1940s or early 1850s. I'm on the wrong side of the pond (Atlantic Ocean) to be able to do this research. His potential bisexuality might be relevant. No matter. You've already dismissed him!
We will just have to agree to differ on this. Best to you both,
Siobhan

[c.d.]

Hi Siobhan,

First let me welcome you to the boards. I suspect that T's marriage was probably a falsehood as was his supposed hatred of women. I think it was just a cover to explain why he was not involved in heterosexual relationships. My opinion only.

c.d.

[j.r-ahde]

Hello Siobhan!

By the way, I love the sound of your first-name, but that has got nothing to do with these boards!

Well, one thing, that excludes Tumblety as JtR, is; since the descriptions of the eye-witnesses vary pretty lot, the Ripper was obviously rather common looking. Tumblety certainly wasn't!

All the best
Jukka

[mklhawley]

Greetings all,


I believe the “Tumblety was a homosexual, thus, is not a viable JTR suspect” argument is missing the point. The argument is challenging only one possible motive for Tumblety to murder. By taking all serial killers into account, the experts have created the following general motives for serial killers: visionary (voices told me to do it), mission-oriented (hate men, women, prostitutes, kill anyone who looks like evil mom, etc.), hedonistic (lust, for the thrill, for comfort/profit), and power. Arguing against Tumblety because he was a homosexual is assuming his motive was hedonistic. Tumblety possibly killing because he was a woman-hater or prostitute fits under the general category of mission-oriented. In part two of Roger Palmer’s three-part article, he clearly shows Scotland Yard knew of Tumblety as a woman-hater much earlier than the charlatan Dunham’s comments about Tumblety’s hatred of women. Point: the woman-hater motive is still valid. Just as Siobhan is pointing out, the gay argument has gaps. Francis Tumblety being an aggressive narcissist leaves the door open for many different motives, such as narcissistic rage upon prostitutes because he blamed them for his progressive disease he contracted years prior. We really do not know the true motive behind the Whitechapel fiend, because the style of murders fit into each one of these categories of motives.

Roger Palmer’s three-part article is demonstrating that Scotland Yard considered Francis Tumblety a serious suspect at the peak of the murder investigation when they had accumulated evidence from all of the murders at their disposal. Recall, Palmer discovered that Chief Inspector Anderson personally contacted Chiefs of Police from Brooklyn and San Francisco for information about Tumblety on the same week they had Tumblety incarcerated. Part three of his article comes out next month promising more significant evidence to reinforce Tumblety’s primary suspect status in the eyes of Scotland Yard.

For us to reject Tumblety with motive arguments that might not even fit the motive of the true Whitechapel killer I believe is speculative at best, especially when Tumblety being the killer can credibly fit into all motive categories AND ALSO Scotland Yard at the time of the murders took Tumblety seriously.

Sincerely,

Mike

[j.r-ahde]

Hello Mike!

Sorry for being stubborn, but;

As far as I know, Tumblety was strikingly-looking.

Like I said in my previous post; the mixed descriptions about the outlook of possible Ripper suggest, that Saucy Jacky was rather common-looking.

All the best
Jukka

[c.d.]

Hi Mike,

You are calling Tumblety an "aggressive narcissist." What exactly does that mean? With all due respect, you can define it to fit any argument or theory. I agree that it is wrong to rule out Tumblety as a suspect simply on the basis of his alleged homosexuality. But the fact remains (for whatever it is worth) that he is a poor fit by profiling standards. Throw in his age, height and mustache and that would be another serious strike against him when compared to witness descriptions. Finally, he would have to be so incredibly arrogant or stupid as to kill Mary Kelly after being in police custody and realizing that he was a suspect and most certainly being watched. He is certainly an intriguing character but I just don't see him as JTR.

c.d.

[mklhawley]

Hello Mike!

Sorry for being stubborn, but;

As far as I know, Tumblety was strikingly-looking.

Like I said in my previous post; the mixed descriptions about the outlook of possible Ripper suggest, that Saucy Jacky was rather common-looking.

All the best
Jukka

Hi Jukka,

Don Rumbelow pointed out in one of his books (I don't have it in front of me) that the Whitechapel streets were very dark, highly populated, and had tons of nooks and crannies for a murderer to hang out. Tumblety himself stated when he was in the Whitechapel district during the murders he "dressed as to not bring attention to himself". What average height of 5 ft 8 inches means is 50% of the Whitechapel male population were taller than that. The bell curve of height also demonstrates that a 6 ft 2 inch tall male fits comfortably within the bell curve, thus does not stick out like a sore thumb like a 7 foot tall male would do, especially when hats were the in thing.

The difference with suspects involving the Whitechapel murders, as opposed to many others, is that no one actually saw the victims being murdered. An eyewitness cannot claim, "He is the killer". There were no eyewitnesses of a murder, just suspects with the prostitutes. Their job was to get multiple "Johns" in a night in order to make money. Recall, JTR never got caught, so these suspect descriptions might even be the reason why the killer got away if Scotland Yard focused only upon these descriptions. Scotland Yard certainly did consider Tumblety a serious suspect as being demonstrated by Roger Palmer, even though they knew he did not fit into the pattern. I have posted a number of 1888 articles showing officials arresting "tall" suspects, which suggests they took everyone seriously. My point is, since they did so should we.

By the way, one possible MO for the killer is he followed a number of these prostitutes with their Johns to a private location. Once the John was finished and left JTR did the killing. This would ensure no could see him with the victims.

Sincerely,

Mike

[mklhawley]

Hi Mike,

You are calling Tumblety an "aggressive narcissist." What exactly does that mean? With all due respect, you can define it to fit any argument or theory. I agree that it is wrong to rule out Tumblety as a suspect simply on the basis of his alleged homosexuality. But the fact remains (for whatever it is worth) that he is a poor fit by profiling standards. Throw in his age, height and mustache and that would be another serious strike against him when compared to witness descriptions. Finally, he would have to be so incredibly arrogant or stupid as to kill Mary Kelly after being in police custody and realizing that he was a suspect and most certainly being watched. He is certainly an intriguing character but I just don't see him as JTR.

c.d.

Hi c.d.,

He was arrogant. The following is what I wrote about Tumblety's aggressive narcissism. Note it does not fit just any argument, since few fit all of these categories as well as Tumblety did:

I believe when one looks at the field of available evidence in its entirety it reveals someone quite the opposite of this image. This man led two lives, a public one he attempted to promote and a private one he attempted to hide. He had the courage to travel constantly, even internationally, with a business that required daily personal contact with strangers of all flavors. Tumblety must have exuded confidence in order to have been successful in his chosen profession as an Indian Herb Doctor …but was he aggressive? Let’s start with the traits of an aggressive, or malignant, narcissist:

This is the Hare Psychopathy checklist for traits of an aggressive narcissist-
1. Glibness/superficial charm
2. Grandiose sense of self-worth
3. Pathological lying
4. Cunning/manipulative
5. Lack of remorse or guilt
6. Shallow affect (expressing emotions deceptively)
7. Callous/lack of empathy
8. Failure to accept responsibility for own actions

Here are Hotchkiss' seven deadly sins of narcissism-
1. Shamelessness
2. Magical thinking
3. Arrogance
4. Envy
5. Entitlement-DEFIANCE OF THEIR WILL IS A NARCISSISTIC INJURY THAT CAN TRIGGER NARCISSISTIC RAGE
6. Exploitation
7. Bad boundaries (societal norms do not pertain to them).

“When reduced to the subdued state NA (Narcissist-Aggressive)- this individual strongly resembles the self-flaunting UNAGGRESSIVE narcissistic personage N. Of course, he "plays the game", and with his hyperactivity and tendency toward "hypersexuality" he would involve himself in many compulsive dependencies, usually as the subjugator but sometimes as the subjugated individual. As is often the case in the dependency of subjugation, he may become overtly sadistic, especially in frustrating and in playing on the emotions of his subjugated companions, of which there may be several at one time. And he too, if opposed, seeks retribution in the self-justified vindictive triumph. This individual when frustrated can be incited to a narcissistic rage, an aggressive-vindictive rage, or a combined narcissistic-aggressive rage (NA rage).” (Benis A.M. (1985, 2nd edition 2008): Chaps. 5 & 6, in Toward Self & Sanity: on the genetic origins of the human character. Psychological Dimensions, New York, pp. 53-54, 116-122.)


How can one argue against Tumblety being a classic aggressive narcissist? I do not see any of these traits he did not possess. -Grandiose, superficial charm, pathological lying, manipulative, lack of remorse, failure to accept responsibility, bad boundaries, etc. Also, Benis goes onto say that NA types love to travel, just as Tumblety did.

This leads to HOTCHKISS’ NARCISSISTIC RAGE and the triggering of this rage due to narcissistic injury, a trait the deceptive/manipulating Tumblety would certainly have wanted hidden (bad for his image and bad for business). Is there any evidence of Tumblety exhibiting this particular behavior? Recall, Francis Tumblety’s reply to a New York World reporter interviewing him soon after he arrived back in the U.S. from the Whitechapel district. When asked how long the police put him in prison, he stated:

“Two or three days; but I don’t care to talk about it. When I think of the way I was treated in London, IT MAKES ME LOSE ALL CONTROL OF MYSELF.”



Sincerely,

Mike