Critiquing arguments against Tumblety, or Francis the Ripper

[mklhawley]

I certainly am convinced that the natural mindset of either straight or gay people have changed little if at all in the last 1 million years. Gay men love their moms and their sisters and often have women as their "best friends" (i.e. girlfriends, if you will). They do not find women sexually attractive but as we all know they love to play dress up with them, hence the overwhelming number of gay dress deigners. They wish, in some cases, that they were women. I have met a few who disdain women but because they are SO turned off by womens' bodies the last thing in the world they would do is touch one, let alone touch, hold and cut out a vagina or a uterus. Can you imagine a gay lady holding up a whang and whacking it off? No, it doesn't play. Try to put yourself in the position of the gay man. ICKK!! That's how they feel about touching womens privates. For these reasons I am extremely sceptical that Tumblety the homosexual would have done thiese killings. I respect any disagreement but please give your reasons for dismissing my argument. Thanks

Hi Goulstonstreet,

I guess by looking at the data on serial killers. I will repeat the quote from the experts:

"Homosexual serial killers have most frequently chosen young boys or gay men as their victims, although some have victimized females as well. Most of the killers have raped their victims either before or after killing them, although in some cases they have killed after consensual homosexual sex. There have been heterosexual serial killers who have targeted gay victims (e.g., Colin Ireland)"

There have been cases of homosexual serial killers killing women, but it looks as though their motives were different. We are assuming with the woman-hater discussions that Tumblety would have used this as his motive. It could also have been multiple motives. ...if he was infact JTR.

Mike

[Trevor Marriott]

[QUOTE=Howard Brown;116032]A brief excerpt from the book which should serve as the standard for all future suspect based works in our field...particularly Chapter 14.

" A final point in relation to the letter: Littlechild's reference to the "large dossier" on Tumblety has been taken to suggest political implications. As Littlechild was head of the Special Branch, whose job it was to keep an eye on Irish rebels and anarchists, it has been suggested that the dossier related to Tumblety's Fenian activities. This is not what Littlechild said but rather what people have read into it. Littlechild said the police had an eye on Tumblety: he did not say the Special Branch did. Had Tumblety been under investigation by the Special Branch, we could have expected Littlechild to be better informed about his life."

If that be the case how come McNaghten never mentioned Tumblety in his memo which was obvioulsy prepared from files that scotland yard still had on the Ripper invetsigation.

In my opinion the viabilty of Tumblety being a suspect for JTR has been hanging from a thread for some time now only a matter of time before the thread breaks.

"The truth is still out there"

[mklhawley]

[QUOTE=Trevor Marriott;116438]

A brief excerpt from the book which should serve as the standard for all future suspect based works in our field...particularly Chapter 14.

" A final point in relation to the letter: Littlechild's reference to the "large dossier" on Tumblety has been taken to suggest political implications. As Littlechild was head of the Special Branch, whose job it was to keep an eye on Irish rebels and anarchists, it has been suggested that the dossier related to Tumblety's Fenian activities. This is not what Littlechild said but rather what people have read into it. Littlechild said the police had an eye on Tumblety: he did not say the Special Branch did. Had Tumblety been under investigation by the Special Branch, we could have expected Littlechild to be better informed about his life."

If that be the case how come McNaghten never mentioned Tumblety in his memo which was obvioulsy prepared from files that scotland yard still had on the Ripper invetsigation.

In my opinion the viabilty of Tumblety being a suspect for JTR has been hanging from a thread for some time now only a matter of time before the thread breaks.

"The truth is still out there"

Excuse my ignorance, but was McNaughten was Littlechild's superior and also part of the Special Branch? If so, are we assuming he would spill the beans about previously classified information? As a retired commander in the Navy, I am still not allowed to discuss classified info that I receive on active duty. Was McNaughten under these same constraints, or he certainly would have spilled the beans?

Mike

[Wolf Vanderlinden]

Wolf, we shall have to agree to disagree again. I am not stupid enough to fly in the face of facts such as Conover's appalling past history casting serious doubt on his word, nor that meticulous research on Tumblety carried out over the fourteen years since we wrote our book has certainly changed aspects of the hypothetical case against him.

However, Littlechild clearly refers to Tumblety's homosexual proclivities when referring to him as a '"Sycopathia Sexualis" subject' but I cannot accept that Littlechild's words "his feelings towards women were remarkable and bitter in the extreme, a fact on record" do not indicate something more than that. This certainly seems to me to indicate more than the fact that he was merely homosexual. The words 'remarkable' and 'bitter in the extreme', seems to indicate to me that there was something more that indicated such extreme feelings and bitterness. Clearly you do not agree and there, I guess, it will have to remain.

A very gentlemanly response. It's gratifying to see that debate on the boards doesn't have to lead to anger or bitterness and we don't have to fight tooth and nail to ram our opinions down each others throats. I, as usual, tip my hat to you.

Wolf.

[Wolf Vanderlinden]

This is high praise indeed, as Wolf is hard to please. I will definitely get this book.

Hi Tom.

I'm usually hard to please because I'm reviewing for Ripper Notes's readership and Dan and I decided early on that we were going to try and give people the straight goods on published works. I thought about that when I read your quote above. Let me add something to what I said earlier.

I loved Tim's book but I did so because I'm one of the small handful of people in the world who put some work into him. What I'm saying is that the average person who may be looking for a Tumblety as Ripper book may not like it as much. If you want an almost monthly look at Tumblety's activities: where he went, what he did, what newspaper ads he used in various cities, then this is the book for you. If not, then the book can seem a bit repetitive.

There were also a few things Tim said which I didn't totally agree with but for the most part they are minor. Things like the fact that although Tumblety's Toronto office was listed in his ads as being "across from the St. Lawrence Hall," and Tim does a great job explaining what that means in terms of Tumblety's status if it was true, the fact is that the office wasn't across from the Hall (but you'd have to be from Toronto to know that). And the fact that Isaac Golliday didn't actually disappear but went to California instead.

I strongly disagree, however, with Tim's opinion that Tumblety actually was asked to run against D'Arcy McGee in the Colonial Parliamentary elections of 1857. There's no way, in my mind, that that can be true given the political situation in Montreal at the time. There is one other thing which I strongly disagree with in the book but I admit that I may be wrong about it so I'll not go into it further here.

In the end, a great book for Tumblety scholars, or people who want to know more about Tumblety's life and movements, but not for the casual Ripper reader.

Wolf.

[Trevor Marriott]

[QUOTE=mklhawley;116440]

Excuse my ignorance, but was McNaughten was Littlechild's superior and also part of the Special Branch? If so, are we assuming he would spill the beans about previously classified information? As a retired commander in the Navy, I am still not allowed to discuss classified info that I receive on active duty. Was McNaughten under these same constraints, or he certainly would have spilled the beans?

Mike

No Monro was Littlechilds superior in Special Branch. Macnaghten was not even a serving police officer at the time of the Ripper

[mklhawley]

Thanks Trevor. If Macnaghten was in the know then this is quite the hurdle.

Mike

[curious]

Gay men love their moms and their sisters and often have women as their "best friends" (i.e. girlfriends, if you will). They do not find women sexually attractive but as we all know they love to play dress up with them, hence the overwhelming number of gay dress deigners. I am extremely sceptical that Tumblety the homosexual would have done thiese killings. I respect any disagreement but please give your reasons for dismissing my argument. Thanks

Hello,
I suspect that not ALL gay men love their mothers and sisters, but their relationship with women depends on their early experiences with the women in their lives.

Tumblety seems to me a very viable suspect on many levels -- on others, not so much. His hatred of women could perhaps stem from a horrible childhood and mother experience. The age of the victims has made me wonder if the killings weren't a "mother" thing -- which would throw MJK completely out of the C5.

Whether Tumblety is JtR or not, he's certainly a fascinating character.
curious

[Trevor Marriott]

Hello,
I suspect that not ALL gay men love their mothers and sisters, but their relationship with women depends on their early experiences with the women in their lives.

Tumblety seems to me a very viable suspect on many levels -- on others, not so much. His hatred of women could perhaps stem from a horrible childhood and mother experience. The age of the victims has made me wonder if the killings weren't a "mother" thing -- which would throw MJK completely out of the C5.

Whether Tumblety is JtR or not, he's certainly a fascinating character.
curious

To much emphasis is being placed on this woman hater aspect in relation to making Tumblety a viable suspect.

Even if he was a woman hater wouldnt automatically make him a serial killer and vice versa. Peter Sutcliife murdered prostitutes but he wasnt a woman hater.

"The truth is still out there"

[mklhawley]

To much emphasis is being placed on this woman hater aspect in relation to making Tumblety a viable suspect.

Even if he was a woman hater wouldnt automatically make him a serial killer and vice versa. Peter Sutcliife murdered prostitutes but he wasnt a woman hater.

"The truth is still out there"

It seems as though modern research on serial killers supports Trevor's comments. There are multiple motives serial killers had, although hatred for a particular group of persons, such as looking like mom, is still certainly one of them. It seems Tumblety's aggressive narcissism (he fits so many of the elements) stems from a lousy upbringing. Since Dr. T is my favorite suspect, I would love to connect his narcissism with a narcissistic serial killer, but this is the big stretch.

Mike

[ghoulstonstreet]

Cunanen/Versace etc.

Hi Goulstonstreet,

I guess by looking at the data on serial killers. I will repeat the quote from the experts:

"Homosexual serial killers have most frequently chosen young boys or gay men as their victims, although some have victimized females as well. Most of the killers have raped their victims either before or after killing them, although in some cases they have killed after consensual homosexual sex. There have been heterosexual serial killers who have targeted gay victims (e.g., Colin Ireland)"

There have been cases of homosexual serial killers killing women, but it looks as though their motives were different. We are assuming with the woman-hater discussions that Tumblety would have used this as his motive. It could also have been multiple motives. ...if he was infact JTR.

Mike

I admit I'm shooting from the hip with my opinion. I don't have statistics to show but I keep thinking about people like Andrew Cunanen, who stalked and killed various gay men and then topped it of with Versace's murder. Gays love other gays and also hate and abuse other gays. heteros love women and also rape and murder them. I mean, the violence certainly seems to be something on the end of the SAME spectrum. Know what I mean? Thanks

[Archaic]

There is so much great information being shared on this thread, I just wanted to say "thank you" to all the contributors.
It's a big help to all of us non-Tumblety-experts.

I also wanted to take a second to welcome both Timothy & Chadwick to the forums.

Thanks and best regards, Archaic

[mklhawley]

I admit I'm shooting from the hip with my opinion. I don't have statistics to show but I keep thinking about people like Andrew Cunanen, who stalked and killed various gay men and then topped it of with Versace's murder. Gays love other gays and also hate and abuse other gays. heteros love women and also rape and murder them. I mean, the violence certainly seems to be something on the end of the SAME spectrum. Know what I mean? Thanks

That certainly resonates with me, ghoulstonstreet. The sex drive is deeper than even emotional attachments; it's so primal. Combine this with passionate emotions sprinkled with abuse, what a nasty recipe.


Archaic, I certainly agree. This stuff is so addicting! The wife is about to hang me, although she keeps her distance b/c I'm so into Jackt the Ripper

Sincerely,

Mike

[Natalie Severn]

[QUOTE=Trevor Marriott;116524]

No Monro was Littlechilds superior in Special Branch. Macnaghten was not even a serving police officer at the time of the Ripper

Quite so Trevor.I think he was running a tea plantation in India.

[ghoulstonstreet]

Hey to one and all who have an interest in Tumblety (I do tho I'm not convinced he did it). In actuality I would love for someone to come up with an historical example of a gay man who was known to cut out womens' reproductive parts. If this can be documented I'd be a lot more willing to seriously consider Tumblety as our guy. But I can't recall any such critter!
As an aside, I posted a question to the Admin but haven't heard back. I want them to set up a book exchange via this website. I have about 35 true crime books which I really do not want to keep. I would like to exchange them with other folks' or send them off for practically nothing plus postage. Are we allowed to do that? Thanks