Critiquing arguments against Tumblety, or Francis the Ripper

[mklhawley]

Thank you.Sorry it took so long to catch up to your post. I acknowledge the fact that most serial killers are straight men, attacking straight women. How many gays are involved doesn't really concern me.
My only point is that I don't believe homosexual men would be obsessed enough, or attracted enough to womens' sexual organs to dig them out, hold them up, cut them off and take them away from a crime scene, and that is just what JTR did. I am now going to read "A Sanguinary Tale", and we'll see where that leads me.

Hey, a late reply is better than none at all. Interestingly, "A Sanguinary Tale" is pre-Victorian Age based in the 1790's. Good point on the homosexual obsession. My belief is that JTR was focused less on women and more on prostitutes. If Tumblety was JTR, it may very well be because of his hatred of prostitutes, which is a slightly different issue. He did associate with these types in his abortion business.

That said, I am still amazed with Chris Scott's discovery of the November 1888 The New York World article just over one week after his second arrest pointing out a big concern about Tumblety's hatred of women.

Mike

[ghoulstonstreet]

I'm sorry, the above is a quotation from an article titled:
Statistical analysis of the proportion of homosexuality among serial killers,
with a listing of prominent GLBT/homosexual serial killers

Thank you.Sorry it took so long to catch up to your post. I acknowledge the fact that most serial killers are straight men, attacking straight women. How many gays are involved doesn't really concern me.
My only point is that I don't believe homosexual men would be obsessed enough, or attracted enough to womens' sexual organs to dig them out, hold them up, cut them off and take them away from a crime scene, and that is just what JTR did. I am now going to read "A Sanguinary Tale", and we'll see where that leads me.

[mklhawley]

By the way, this is an interesting read on homosexual serial killers. It may dispell some misconception. Also keep in mind, some JTR experts (Capt Jack) have evidence to support Tumbley not being a homosexual. Interesting...

Although the proportion of serial killers who are known to have had homosexual experience is high (over 43%), the total number of serial killers is too small to make statistically relevant statements about whether homosexuals are over- or under-represented among serial killers. [Click here for source, related studies and statistics.]

Also, it should be noted that many of the homosexual serial killers on this list were not active members of the Gay & Lesbian cultural community.

Many of the most famous serial killers (e.g., Jeffrey Dahmer, Andrew Cunanan, John Wayne Gacy, etc.) were homosexuals, but they became widely known due to the nature of their crimes or the identities of their victims, not because they in any way represent serial killers generally.

Given that less than 2% of adults are homosexuals (plus 1 to 2% who are bisexual), there would not need to be very many homosexuals among the total number of serial killers for them to be over-represented. But with such small overall numbers, and with no universally agreed upon definition of a homosexual, it would be impossible to determine the relative frequency of homosexuals among serial killers. Unlike gender and race (clearly ascertainable), there are no physical or genetic tests for sexual orientation. It can only be determined by behavior and self-identification.

Some serial killers engaged in sex with both males and females, which would prompt some people to classify them as bisexuals. Their actual identity would then be argued about by various biologists, gay writers, and others, who would classify their status as a variant of homosexuality, a distinct classification, or repressed homosexuals. Such hair-splitting is well beyond the scope of this paper. Suffice it say, all of the individuals listed here as "homosexual serial killers" can be classified as homosexual as the term is generally used.

Homosexual serial killers have most frequently chosen young boys or gay men as their victims, although some have victimized females as well. Most of the killers have raped their victims either before or after killing them, although in some cases they have killed after consensual homosexual sex. There have been heterosexual serial killers who have targeted gay victims (e.g., Colin Ireland), but this is very rare.

But more importantly, none of the serial killers listed here represent typical homosexuals, who, like the general population, are almost never involved in violent crime. The exact nature of each individual's feelings, attitudes, and behavior with regards to sex is unique, in the general population as well as among serial killers. Legally, all or nearly all of the homosexual serial killers on this list would be considered sexual deviants because of the extreme and violent nature of their acts -- not simply because of their homosexual orientation. It must be emphasized that violent sexual deviancy is exhibited by heterosexual serial killers as well.

Sincerely,

Mike

I'm sorry, the above is a quotation from an article titled:
Statistical analysis of the proportion of homosexuality among serial killers,
with a listing of prominent GLBT/homosexual serial killers

[mklhawley]

Hi ghoulstonstreet,

Marc Dutroux was a gay serial killer who killed six women (1995-1996). I'm not sure about the taking out of body parts, but I don't see why that would have to fit into the equation. The myriad of motives serial killers follow can manifest in multiple ways.

Sincerely,

Mike

By the way, this is an interesting read on homosexual serial killers. It may dispell some misconception. Also keep in mind, some JTR experts (Capt Jack) have evidence to support Tumbley not being a homosexual. Interesting...

Although the proportion of serial killers who are known to have had homosexual experience is high (over 43%), the total number of serial killers is too small to make statistically relevant statements about whether homosexuals are over- or under-represented among serial killers. [Click here for source, related studies and statistics.]

Also, it should be noted that many of the homosexual serial killers on this list were not active members of the Gay & Lesbian cultural community.

Many of the most famous serial killers (e.g., Jeffrey Dahmer, Andrew Cunanan, John Wayne Gacy, etc.) were homosexuals, but they became widely known due to the nature of their crimes or the identities of their victims, not because they in any way represent serial killers generally.

Given that less than 2% of adults are homosexuals (plus 1 to 2% who are bisexual), there would not need to be very many homosexuals among the total number of serial killers for them to be over-represented. But with such small overall numbers, and with no universally agreed upon definition of a homosexual, it would be impossible to determine the relative frequency of homosexuals among serial killers. Unlike gender and race (clearly ascertainable), there are no physical or genetic tests for sexual orientation. It can only be determined by behavior and self-identification.

Some serial killers engaged in sex with both males and females, which would prompt some people to classify them as bisexuals. Their actual identity would then be argued about by various biologists, gay writers, and others, who would classify their status as a variant of homosexuality, a distinct classification, or repressed homosexuals. Such hair-splitting is well beyond the scope of this paper. Suffice it say, all of the individuals listed here as "homosexual serial killers" can be classified as homosexual as the term is generally used.

Homosexual serial killers have most frequently chosen young boys or gay men as their victims, although some have victimized females as well. Most of the killers have raped their victims either before or after killing them, although in some cases they have killed after consensual homosexual sex. There have been heterosexual serial killers who have targeted gay victims (e.g., Colin Ireland), but this is very rare.

But more importantly, none of the serial killers listed here represent typical homosexuals, who, like the general population, are almost never involved in violent crime. The exact nature of each individual's feelings, attitudes, and behavior with regards to sex is unique, in the general population as well as among serial killers. Legally, all or nearly all of the homosexual serial killers on this list would be considered sexual deviants because of the extreme and violent nature of their acts -- not simply because of their homosexual orientation. It must be emphasized that violent sexual deviancy is exhibited by heterosexual serial killers as well.

Sincerely,

Mike

[mklhawley]

Hey to one and all who have an interest in Tumblety (I do tho I'm not convinced he did it). In actuality I would love for someone to come up with an historical example of a gay man who was known to cut out womens' reproductive parts. If this can be documented I'd be a lot more willing to seriously consider Tumblety as our guy. But I can't recall any such critter!
As an aside, I posted a question to the Admin but haven't heard back. I want them to set up a book exchange via this website. I have about 35 true crime books which I really do not want to keep. I would like to exchange them with other folks' or send them off for practically nothing plus postage. Are we allowed to do that? Thanks

Hi ghoulstonstreet,

Marc Dutroux was a gay serial killer who killed six women (1995-1996). I'm not sure about the taking out of body parts, but I don't see why that would have to fit into the equation. The myriad of motives serial killers follow can manifest in multiple ways.

Sincerely,

Mike

[ghoulstonstreet]

Hey to one and all who have an interest in Tumblety (I do tho I'm not convinced he did it). In actuality I would love for someone to come up with an historical example of a gay man who was known to cut out womens' reproductive parts. If this can be documented I'd be a lot more willing to seriously consider Tumblety as our guy. But I can't recall any such critter!
As an aside, I posted a question to the Admin but haven't heard back. I want them to set up a book exchange via this website. I have about 35 true crime books which I really do not want to keep. I would like to exchange them with other folks' or send them off for practically nothing plus postage. Are we allowed to do that? Thanks

[Natalie Severn]

[QUOTE=Trevor Marriott;116524]

No Monro was Littlechilds superior in Special Branch. Macnaghten was not even a serving police officer at the time of the Ripper

Quite so Trevor.I think he was running a tea plantation in India.

[mklhawley]

I admit I'm shooting from the hip with my opinion. I don't have statistics to show but I keep thinking about people like Andrew Cunanen, who stalked and killed various gay men and then topped it of with Versace's murder. Gays love other gays and also hate and abuse other gays. heteros love women and also rape and murder them. I mean, the violence certainly seems to be something on the end of the SAME spectrum. Know what I mean? Thanks

That certainly resonates with me, ghoulstonstreet. The sex drive is deeper than even emotional attachments; it's so primal. Combine this with passionate emotions sprinkled with abuse, what a nasty recipe.


Archaic, I certainly agree. This stuff is so addicting! The wife is about to hang me, although she keeps her distance b/c I'm so into Jackt the Ripper

Sincerely,

Mike

[Archaic]

There is so much great information being shared on this thread, I just wanted to say "thank you" to all the contributors.
It's a big help to all of us non-Tumblety-experts.

I also wanted to take a second to welcome both Timothy & Chadwick to the forums.

Thanks and best regards, Archaic

[ghoulstonstreet]

Cunanen/Versace etc.

Hi Goulstonstreet,

I guess by looking at the data on serial killers. I will repeat the quote from the experts:

"Homosexual serial killers have most frequently chosen young boys or gay men as their victims, although some have victimized females as well. Most of the killers have raped their victims either before or after killing them, although in some cases they have killed after consensual homosexual sex. There have been heterosexual serial killers who have targeted gay victims (e.g., Colin Ireland)"

There have been cases of homosexual serial killers killing women, but it looks as though their motives were different. We are assuming with the woman-hater discussions that Tumblety would have used this as his motive. It could also have been multiple motives. ...if he was infact JTR.

Mike

I admit I'm shooting from the hip with my opinion. I don't have statistics to show but I keep thinking about people like Andrew Cunanen, who stalked and killed various gay men and then topped it of with Versace's murder. Gays love other gays and also hate and abuse other gays. heteros love women and also rape and murder them. I mean, the violence certainly seems to be something on the end of the SAME spectrum. Know what I mean? Thanks

[mklhawley]

To much emphasis is being placed on this woman hater aspect in relation to making Tumblety a viable suspect.

Even if he was a woman hater wouldnt automatically make him a serial killer and vice versa. Peter Sutcliife murdered prostitutes but he wasnt a woman hater.

"The truth is still out there"

It seems as though modern research on serial killers supports Trevor's comments. There are multiple motives serial killers had, although hatred for a particular group of persons, such as looking like mom, is still certainly one of them. It seems Tumblety's aggressive narcissism (he fits so many of the elements) stems from a lousy upbringing. Since Dr. T is my favorite suspect, I would love to connect his narcissism with a narcissistic serial killer, but this is the big stretch.

Mike

[Trevor Marriott]

Hello,
I suspect that not ALL gay men love their mothers and sisters, but their relationship with women depends on their early experiences with the women in their lives.

Tumblety seems to me a very viable suspect on many levels -- on others, not so much. His hatred of women could perhaps stem from a horrible childhood and mother experience. The age of the victims has made me wonder if the killings weren't a "mother" thing -- which would throw MJK completely out of the C5.

Whether Tumblety is JtR or not, he's certainly a fascinating character.
curious

To much emphasis is being placed on this woman hater aspect in relation to making Tumblety a viable suspect.

Even if he was a woman hater wouldnt automatically make him a serial killer and vice versa. Peter Sutcliife murdered prostitutes but he wasnt a woman hater.

"The truth is still out there"

[curious]

Gay men love their moms and their sisters and often have women as their "best friends" (i.e. girlfriends, if you will). They do not find women sexually attractive but as we all know they love to play dress up with them, hence the overwhelming number of gay dress deigners. I am extremely sceptical that Tumblety the homosexual would have done thiese killings. I respect any disagreement but please give your reasons for dismissing my argument. Thanks

Hello,
I suspect that not ALL gay men love their mothers and sisters, but their relationship with women depends on their early experiences with the women in their lives.

Tumblety seems to me a very viable suspect on many levels -- on others, not so much. His hatred of women could perhaps stem from a horrible childhood and mother experience. The age of the victims has made me wonder if the killings weren't a "mother" thing -- which would throw MJK completely out of the C5.

Whether Tumblety is JtR or not, he's certainly a fascinating character.
curious

[mklhawley]

Thanks Trevor. If Macnaghten was in the know then this is quite the hurdle.

Mike

[Trevor Marriott]

[QUOTE=mklhawley;116440]

Excuse my ignorance, but was McNaughten was Littlechild's superior and also part of the Special Branch? If so, are we assuming he would spill the beans about previously classified information? As a retired commander in the Navy, I am still not allowed to discuss classified info that I receive on active duty. Was McNaughten under these same constraints, or he certainly would have spilled the beans?

Mike

No Monro was Littlechilds superior in Special Branch. Macnaghten was not even a serving police officer at the time of the Ripper