Francis Tumblety's Gravesite on Video

[mklhawley]

Hello,

This is my first time on the forums and it is my first post. This last weekend, I went to Rochester, NY, and found Francis Tumblety's gravesite. I videotaped it and put it on YouTube, so that everyone can see.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zei2rD8u0tg

Mike

[corey123]

hello mike

first of all welcom to casebook forums.nice video you have there.personally i dont belive tumblety to be the ripper.for various reasons..
yours truly

[mklhawley]

Thank you Corey. I would love to know your reasons, especially since criminal profiler, Brent Turvey (an expert in understanding the psychy of criminals), explained why Tumblety does not fit the profile of a homosexual serial killer but fits the profile of a true woman hater. I don't know of any other convincing arguments against Tumblety.

Mike

[corey123]

Your welcome

Well first of all just because one criminal profiler said that Tumblerty fitted the profile of the ripper means he is. Infact he is the total opposite of the usual ripper profile.

The ripper profile says that the ripper probally held a weekly job as to why the murders were on weekends and holidays. Tumblerty didnt hold a job.

Second, tumblerty was the kind of cocyopath who attracked way too much attention to himself while in the case of the ripper would seem like a normal guy, not out of the ordinary at all.

Third, tumblerty as far as I know didnt have any cycological disorders in which the ripper most likely did.

And lastly, tumblerty's M.O is the use of poison(which is the exact opposite of the ripper) but I'm not saying a murderer cant change his M.O but its EXTREAMILY UNLIKELY.
But I respect your veiws. I personally dont believe any of the suspects are likely to be jack the ripper.
Again welcom to the forum

yours truly

[jonwilson]

Tumblety was close to 6 feet tall. He would have stood out. He also had a large mustache.

[corey123]

Height

The average height in london 1888 was 5'6", but this means nothing. If Tumblerty didnt attract too much attention then he would be a plausable suspect. But who knows? Maybe he is the ripper, but for now in MY opinion he falls a bit short of plausable.

yours truly

[c.d.]

Hello,

This is my first time on the forums and it is my first post. This last weekend, I went to Rochester, NY, and found Francis Tumblety's gravesite. I videotaped it and put it on YouTube, so that everyone can see.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zei2rD8u0tg

Mike

Hi Mike,

Thanks for the video. Very interesting. As others have pointed out, Tumblety was close to six feet tall and 55 years of age at the time. He also had an extremely large mustache. We can't be absolutely sure that any of the witnesses actually saw the Ripper but if they did, they certainly were not describing Tumblety.

Welcome to the boards and thanks again for the video.

c.d.

[c.d.]

Hi Corey,

With regards to using poison, I think you meant Chapman/Klosowski not Tumblety.

c.d.

[corey123]

yes

Sorry, I must have been thinking of another suspect. Thankl you for the correction. I tend to stay away from Tumblerty

[mklhawley]

Great points Corey and Jon. With respect to Brent Turvey, I do not discount him so quickly. Not only does he apply critical thinking as we are doing, he also possesses knowledge, training, and experience. I'm guessing that the source of the Ripper profile you mentioned also possesses these, so I would love to know the source. The following are works from Turvey:

Petherick, W. & Turvey, B. (2009) Forensic Criminology, San Diego:
Elsevier Science

Turvey, B. (2008) Criminal Profiling, 3rd Ed., Boston: Elsevier Science

Petherick, W. & Turvey, B. (2008) Forensic Victimology, San Diego:
Elsevier Science

Chisum, W.J. & Turvey B. (2006) Crime Reconstruction, Boston: Elsevier
Science

I'd like to know more about the MO as poison. From what I've read, it seems his poisonings were due to malpractice (as if a quack doctor can have malpractice). They could very well have been accidents from an idiot.

American authorities were waiting for the guy once he jumped bail at Whitechapel, and they were waiting for him for the Ripper murders. This can only mean Scotland Yard contacted the American authorities. How else would they have known Tumblety is on his way? Yet, there was no record of this from Scotland yard.

Interestingly, a prostitute named Carrie Brown was murdered in Manhatten, NY, in 1891, and Tumblety lived in NYC as per NYC Chief Inspector Byrnes. She was strangled, mutilated, and organs were removed.

Tumbelty being a known woman hater (motive), a collector of women's uteruses (motive), being present in Whitechapel for all of the Ripper-style murders (opportunity), once he left Whitechapel in November the murders stopped, and then a handwriting expert matches the "From Hell" letter with Tumblety's letter, is hard to ignore. All this being said, I am not confident that I've ignored wishful thinking in my decision-making (Hence, the reason why I joined this group).

Thanks,

Mike

[corey123]

Handwriting

You have a good arguement. But the source is the FBI profile made by SAA John E. Douglas of the NVAVC.

And also I have veiwed both Tumbleties handwriting and that of the 'From Hell' letter, they dont match whatso ever.

Plus he seems to much of an outcast than that of most known serial killers.

He was availiable at the time but if you consider there being maybe more than five muders(as do I) then this would rule Tumblety out.

P.s. this group is very interesting. You will learn more from here than reading any books.

yours truly

[curious]

Hello,

This is my first time on the forums and it is my first post. This last weekend, I went to Rochester, NY, and found Francis Tumblety's gravesite. I videotaped it and put it on YouTube, so that everyone can see.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zei2rD8u0tg

Mike

Mike,
Very nice video. Thanks for sharing.

Tumblety was certainly a character. He does have many features that make me stop and wonder. My personal jury is still out as I wander down the multitude of possibilities.

It's interesting that Tumblety was arrested in the Lincoln assassination investigation also. I'm guessing he was the only person connected with the two most infamous cases of the 19th century.

What a total no-good-nik.

Again, enjoyed the video.

Curious

[curious]

Tumblety Has To Be A Strong Suspect

American authorities were waiting for the guy once he jumped bail at Whitechapel, and they were waiting for him for the Ripper murders. This can only mean Scotland Yard contacted the American authorities. How else would they have known Tumblety is on his way? Yet, there was no record of this from Scotland yard.

Interestingly, a prostitute named Carrie Brown was murdered in Manhatten, NY, in 1891, and Tumblety lived in NYC as per NYC Chief Inspector Byrnes. She was strangled, mutilated, and organs were removed.

Tumbelty being a known woman hater (motive), a collector of women's uteruses (motive), being present in Whitechapel for all of the Ripper-style murders (opportunity), once he left Whitechapel in November the murders stopped, and then a handwriting expert matches the "From Hell" letter with Tumblety's letter, is hard to ignore. All this being said, I am not confident that I've ignored wishful thinking in my decision-making (Hence, the reason why I joined this group).

Thanks,

Mike

Mike,
I've considered all that you've pointed out -- prior to your post, as I've begun exploring this interesting case.

In my mind, there had to be a reason Scotland Yard was so interested in Tumblety.

But trying to reconcile Tumblety with all the witness accounts presents a problem. UNLESS McNaughton was right and no one ever saw the Ripper.

The only thing I've come up with yet to make Tumblety a possible suspect is what Tumblety called "ambushcade."

If Tumblety was the Ripper, he must have been hiding in the shadows, perhaps trailing his vicitim-of-the-day. Remaining out of sight. Pouncing when no one was around.

That way, Tumblety would work as the Ripper.

Sometimes I wonder if he wasn't too fastidious to get that much blood all over him? then again, he was a field surgeon and an abortionist. . .

My personal jury is still floundering around. . . . but I think he's a stong suspect because the authorities of the day thought he was.

curious

[corey123]

Reasons

First of all the reason her was a fit subject for macnaughten was because first of all Inspecter Andrews followed him in new york.

Secondly he was exactly what police thought to be killers those days:crazy,luinatic,quack doctor,ect.

There are many reasons NOT to suspect him. As I said befor he drew too much attention to himself to be a serial killer like jack. If you consider more than the C5 to be victims of Jack The Ripper then that alone rules out tumblety becuase he fled to New York after MJKs death. Being a 'woman hater' to me isnt a good enough motive to go killing women. Also if he just wanted to collect uterisi then he could just perform "bad" abortions and take them from his patients, why would he resort to murder?????

yours truly

[mklhawley]

Corey,

Just as you said, this is absolutely better than reading a book. The interaction is awesome. At least two known serial killers loved attention: Charles Manson and Ted Bundy. I do not see drawing attention to oneself as a drawback, especially when the intelligence level of serial killers tends to be above average.

Take another look at killings in the Whitechapel district throughout the years. Sadly, it was quite commonplace. The authorities at the time had a better feel for this deadly environmen, and they certainly separated the C5 killings from the rest. In view of this, Tumblety maintains should not be excluded from a suspect (although, not the only one).

I do agree with you the being a woman hater isn't a good enough motive to go killing women. So far, the only common thread serial killers have is an unusually small amygdala (not all serial killers' amygdala have been tested, but it has match those tested), which is the part of the brain that controls sympathy towards others. This man definately cared less for his Indian herbal scams.

I have also compared the letters, and I definately see some connections. Just as Michelle Dresbold states, the author of the "From Hell" letter used contractions that only people of Irish descent used (such as "tother"). The "I's" smoothly connecting into the next word is another match, and quite an unusual one. By the way, are any of the other suspects of Irish descent. This may conform to them as well.

Mike