Tumblety's physical appearance

[Scobie]

The physical description we have of Tumblety, see Beggs and Sugden, suggests he is for the time a large and striking individual that would have stood out quite a bit in Whitechapel in 1888, or at the very least been noticed and recalled by witnesses.

None of the eyewitness accounts, sketchy as they are, describe someone anything like Tumblety. I also don't feel he could have committed these crimes and slipped away without being seen, nor scouted the areas before the crimes and not been noticed. Someone would have remembered seeing him in the vicinity and we would have a less generic description of the killer.

[perrymason]

The physical description we have of Tumblety, see Beggs and Sugden, suggests he is for the time a large and striking individual that would have stood out quite a bit in Whitechapel in 1888, or at the very least been noticed and recalled by witnesses.

None of the eyewitness accounts, sketchy as they are, describe someone anything like Tumblety. I also don't feel he could have committed these crimes and slipped away without being seen, nor scouted the areas before the crimes and not been noticed. Someone would have remembered seeing him in the vicinity and we would have a less generic description of the killer.

Hi Scobie,

On the basis on his height alone you are correct in assuming his appearance wouldn't fit any know suspect as described by a witness in a Canonical Group murder investigation.

But dont forget that we dont know whether any of those men seen were in fact the killer of the women they were seen with, nor the man called Jack the Ripper. The man seen with Kate just outside Mitre Square is the most likely killer among all the "suspects" based on Mr Lawendes timing of his viewing, and the timing of Watkins when he finds her......its almost unthinkable that she could have met someone else after that 1:35am sighting and still be where she is found by Watkins with all that was done to her, by approximately 1:44am.

And although Dr T is not a personal favourite for Jack the Ripper, he might have employed him.

Best regards

[Scobie]

Hi Scobie,

On the basis on his height alone you are correct in assuming his appearance wouldn't fit any know suspect as described by a witness in a Canonical Group murder investigation.

But dont forget that we dont know whether any of those men seen were in fact the killer of the women they were seen with, nor the man called Jack the Ripper. The man seen with Kate just outside Mitre Square is the most likely killer among all the "suspects" based on Mr Lawendes timing of his viewing, and the timing of Watkins when he finds her......its almost unthinkable that she could have met someone else after that 1:35am sighting and still be where she is found by Watkins with all that was done to her, by approximately 1:44am.

And although Dr T is not a personal favourite for Jack the Ripper, he might have employed him.

Best regards

Hi Perry, yes its true that none of the witnesses have been verified...but if Tumblety was there, surely someone would have seen and remembered him given his size, he certainly wouldn't blend in...not 5 times!.. especially if everyone is on alert for someone suspicious or out of the ordinary. But he - or anyone of his appearance - is never mentioned.

Also if someone was hired by him to obtain female organs as has been suggested, I don't believe that that Mary Kelly would have been butchered in that way, nor would there have been the need to take the risk of the double event. That was done by someone with a compulsion to kill, not a hired hand.

Cheers

Scobie

[halomanuk]

He was also approximately 55 years old at the time of the murders in 1888,which doesnt bode too well with the witness statements.

[perrymason]

Hi Perry, yes its true that none of the witnesses have been verified...but if Tumblety was there, surely someone would have seen and remembered him given his size, he certainly wouldn't blend in...not 5 times!.. especially if everyone is on alert for someone suspicious or out of the ordinary. But he - or anyone of his appearance - is never mentioned.

Also if someone was hired by him to obtain female organs as has been suggested, I don't believe that that Mary Kelly would have been butchered in that way, nor would there have been the need to take the risk of the double event. That was done by someone with a compulsion to kill, not a hired hand.

Cheers

Scobie

I agree with your conclusion, Mary would not fit into that kind of profile based on her murder scene and evidence.

And thats fine by me, much of her murder departs from "Ripper conventions" anyway....and I doubt very much what drove her killer to murder was the same as what drove Jack the Ripper to kill.

Cheers Scobie

[Scobie]

I agree with your conclusion, Mary would not fit into that kind of profile based on her murder scene and evidence.

And thats fine by me, much of her murder departs from "Ripper conventions" anyway....and I doubt very much what drove her killer to murder was the same as what drove Jack the Ripper to kill.

Cheers Scobie

Hi Michael, yes Tumblety was obviously a bit of a shyster and quack...but I don't think the evidence stacks up to him being the Spitalfields killer.

Also not sure what you mean by that last statement...you don't think Kelly was killed by the same person as the other 4?

Scobie

[perrymason]

Hi Michael, yes Tumblety was obviously a bit of a shyster and quack...but I don't think the evidence stacks up to him being the Spitalfields killer.

Also not sure what you mean by that last statement...you don't think Kelly was killed by the same person as the other 4?

Scobie

Hi Scobie,

My personal opinion is that the evidence suggests it was someone she knew as her killer, and the motives included passion in some form. So no, I dont believe that Annie Chapmans murderer is represented in the death of Mary Kelly, and I do believe that Annie was a true "Ripper" victim.

All the best.

[celee]

Hi Perry, yes its true that none of the witnesses have been verified...but if Tumblety was there, surely someone would have seen and remembered him given his size, he certainly wouldn't blend in...not 5 times!.. especially if everyone is on alert for someone suspicious or out of the ordinary. But he - or anyone of his appearance - is never mentioned.

Also if someone was hired by him to obtain female organs as has been suggested, I don't believe that that Mary Kelly would have been butchered in that way, nor would there have been the need to take the risk of the double event. That was done by someone with a compulsion to kill, not a hired hand.

Cheers

Scobie

Abberline in his 1903 seems to dismiss all the eywitness when he claims not ever got a good look at the Ripper. The Ripper struck on 4 nights over a two and a halve month period and only on three of them did he kill out doors. Kelly, he killed inside her home. It is not all that sensational that on three rainy nights he managed to avoid detection.

The Organ Harvesting Idea was put forth by Abberline. I agree with you the Kelly murder was a total mutilation to the body. I doubt organ harvesting was the motive, but you never know if you are sick enough to kill a woman for her organs you might just want to mutilate the body, and there would have been no need to risk attacking Eddowes. If Stride was a Rippr victim.

The Kelly crime scene is different because he killed her indoors.

[halomanuk]

I think somebody 'harvested' her heart Brad,it wouldn't have been able to be burned to ashes on the fire.
And even if it was burned,again,with other organs being moved around and placed,you have to look at least a similar MO to the Chapman,Eddowes murders.

[Scobie]

Abberline in his 1903 seems to dismiss all the eywitness when he claims not ever got a good look at the Ripper. The Ripper struck on 4 nights over a two and a halve month period and only on three of them did he kill out doors. Kelly, he killed inside her home. It is not all that sensational that on three rainy nights he managed to avoid detection.

The Organ Harvesting Idea was put forth by Abberline. I agree with you the Kelly murder was a total mutilation to the body. I doubt organ harvesting was the motive, but you never know if you are sick enough to kill a woman for her organs you might just want to mutilate the body, and there would have been no need to risk attacking Eddowes. If Stride was a Rippr victim.

The Kelly crime scene is different because he killed her indoors.

Sure none of the eyewitnesses could provide a decent detailed description, and I believe this is due to the normal looking subject. But regardless of that I think it is definitely possible that in a couple of cases the person seen was the killer, if the timing of the series of events are considered. If that person was Tumblety, then he would have stood out from the crowd and their recollections would have reflected that.

[celee]

Hi,

How tall was Tumblety? I have read that he was 5'11 or as tall as 6'4

It is very possible that nobody even saw the Ripper. I think Eddowes was long dead before lewende claims to have seen here,

Your friend, Brad

[Scobie]

Hi,

How tall was Tumblety? I have read that he was 5'11 or as tall as 6'4

It is very possible that nobody even saw the Ripper. I think Eddowes was long dead before lewende claims to have seen here,

Your friend, Brad

Reports of his height vary but apparently he was a big man. I just can't see someone like him prowling abut Whitechapel and not being noticed / remembered/ commented on.

[dixon9]

have to say i agree with halomanuk,if we are to believe FT is a prime suspect do we then disregard must of the 'eye witness' accounts of the men who were with the victims just prior to their murders?
As what i can gather most witness' put the age bracket in and around mid 30s

[perrymason]

Tumblety was 6 feet tall, most men seen with victims were around 5'8"....and that doesnt mean he didnt "kill" them at all.

First off, we dont know which witness most probably saw Jack cause we dont know which victims are most probably Jacks, and Secondly, all he had to do was hire a 5'8" killer and the suspects height is a non-issue.

However if he hired killer or killers, then they become a potentially liability later on.

But do you think anyone is looking for a man around 5'8" who had a violent record locally and who turned up dead very soon after the "Ripper" murders ended? Nope. Cause no-one thinks Jack is actually a man who hired a killer or killers for specific functions, they dont imagine "Jack" as the brains and a lesser criminal the brawn,.....and if the above were to be true, and Dr T hired a man or men to kill and then killed him/them off for his own protection....no-one would know, cause no-one looks at the deaths of males during this period as anything but possible "Ripper" suicides....never "silenced" Ripper helpers.

Best regards

[lynn cates]

employer/employee(s)

Hello. This is all quite plausible, of course.

I presume that, on this scenario, C3 and C5 are ruled out for obvious reasons. Moreover, I would assume the slayer of C1 and C4 missed the full payoff being offered--again, for obvious reasons. Afterwards, the "heat" getting close to Dr. T, he would bolt. Perhaps, then, only 1 or 2 such "brawnies" as he happened to employ could be easily silenced.

LC