“Was Francis Thompson Jack the Ripper?” Joseph C. Rupp, M.D., Ph.D.

Collapse
X
 
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts
  • Herlock Sholmes
    Commissioner
    • May 2017
    • 23382

    #31
    Originally posted by Richard Patterson View Post

    Haha, I’ve no doubt you are, Fishy. I can see you’ve been around long enough to recognise the old dance when it starts up. You’re right—some folks will guard the myth like it’s holy writ, even when the evidence is shifting under their feet. I’m not here to fight them, just to keep the record honest and the discussion open. That’s all any of us can really do.
    No you aren’t. You are here to promote your book. If you were here in the interests of the advancing the subject you would engage in discussion by responding to poster’s questions and points but you refuse to do this, proving that you have no confidence in your own case. You realise that it falls when faced by close questioning therefore you refuse to engage and just keep on the irritating mass-posting of AI generated guff that only one person apart from yourself takes seriously (and that person is the only human being on the planet that takes the Knight/Sickert theory seriously so I wouldn’t get too enthusiastic about his ‘support’ as he thinks that Sir William Gull [who certainly wasn’t the ripper] is a likelier ripper than Thompson)
    Herlock Sholmes

    ”I don’t know who Jack the Ripper was…and neither do you.”

    Comment

    • rjpalmer
      Commissioner
      • Mar 2008
      • 4498

      #32
      Originally posted by Doctored Whatsit View Post
      Hi Richard,

      You make the highly contentious statement that "all of the authorities on the Ripper agree that the murderer quite likely had some sort of medical training".
      Doctored W. --

      It's important to know the context.

      Unless I am sorely mistaken, and I don't think I am, except for Richard's brief introductory statement, the entirety of the original post is Dr. Rupp's article from The Criminologist. Hence the title of this thread.

      So, the statement you quote might be contentious, or even totally inaccurate, but it's not Richard's. It was made by Dr. Joseph Rupp, the American pathologist who conducted 9,000 autopsies.

      But bear this in mind. When Dr. Rupp wrote his article in 1988, some of the medical opinion was not widely known or even known at all. Many of the reports in the MEPO files hadn't been published, and others, like Dr. Bond's report on the Kelly murder, were even entirely unknown, because it was anonymously returned to Scotland Yard that same year.

      So, this explains Dr. Rupp's "contentious" statement. Some of the medical opinion was not yet known.

      Regards.

      Comment

      • Doctored Whatsit
        Sergeant
        • May 2021
        • 842

        #33
        Originally posted by rjpalmer View Post

        Doctored W. --

        It's important to know the context.

        Unless I am sorely mistaken, and I don't think I am, except for Richard's brief introductory statement, the entirety of the original post is Dr. Rupp's article from The Criminologist. Hence the title of this thread.

        So, the statement you quote might be contentious, or even totally inaccurate, but it's not Richard's. It was made by Dr. Joseph Rupp, the American pathologist who conducted 9,000 autopsies.

        But bear this in mind. When Dr. Rupp wrote his article in 1988, some of the medical opinion was not widely known or even known at all. Many of the reports in the MEPO files hadn't been published, and others, like Dr. Bond's report on the Kelly murder, were even entirely unknown, because it was anonymously returned to Scotland Yard that same year.

        So, this explains Dr. Rupp's "contentious" statement. Some of the medical opinion was not yet known.

        Regards.
        Yes, thank you, I could have phrased that better! "Used" rather than "made" would have been more appropriate. The point I was making rather clumsily, was that the comment that was quoted was not regarded as an accurate one. If we use a quote to prove our opinion, we should acknowledge that it may not be accurate.

        Comment

        • rjpalmer
          Commissioner
          • Mar 2008
          • 4498

          #34
          Originally posted by Richard Patterson View Post

          In August of 1866, after nine months on the streets of London, Thompson met John McMaster, owner of a boot shop at 14 Panton Street just off Leicester Square. McMaster took him in his shop and gave him employment. He received his food and five shillings a week for his services as messenger, odd job Boy, and for opening and closing the shop. Mr. McMaster did all he could to rehabilitate Thompson. He gave him a boy’s work to do and Thompson was more a guest than an employee. In the bookmaker’s shop and within the circle
          of the McMaster family Thompson began to write and talk as he had not done for a long time.

          In December 1888, it was arranged that Francis should return home to his family for the Christmas holidays. Francis spent two weeks with the family, however his family was changing. His sister Mary planned to enter a convent and his father announced his intention to take a second wife.

          When Thompson returned in McMaster’s shop in January, he had increased his use of laudanum, although his benefactor, like his father, mistook the symptoms for those of alcoholism. Upon his return, Francis was even less of a satisfactory employee than before. Disappointed with what he considered as ‘his only failure’, McMaster decided that he could no Longer keep Thompson in his home. By the middle of January 1887, clothed in a brown overcoat, which he was to wear for several years, the poet left the bookshop to return to his vagrant life. On the streets of London during the bitter winter of 1886, he reached the nadir of his life. Starving and near death, charity came to him from an unexpected source. A young prostitute took him home to share her food and lodging. With her Thompson found companionship and warmth, which filled the gap left by the death of his mother.

          In February of 1887, Francis had some kind of unexplained good fortune. ‘With a few shillings to give me breathing space’, he began to pull together the manuscript of his essay entitled ‘Paganism’ and some poems. ‘Next day I spent my half penny on two boxes of matches (to sell) and began the struggle for life.’ At the end of February 1887, he sent the manuscript and the poems to a small Catholic magazine called ‘Merry England’.
          From the context, it appears that two or three typos have crept into the transcription. 'August 1866' must be '1886' and 'December 1888' is presumably December 1886.

          I suppose it is too late now to correct these dates without the assistance of the moderator/administrator, but I, for one, would like to see a full 'true' copy of Dr. Rupp's article made available because it is not easy to come by.
          Last edited by rjpalmer; Today, 02:45 PM.

          Comment

          • Herlock Sholmes
            Commissioner
            • May 2017
            • 23382

            #35
            Originally posted by FISHY1118 View Post

            Did you just get called a " Coward " ?
            I was wondering when you would stoop to your old trick Fishy.
            Herlock Sholmes

            ”I don’t know who Jack the Ripper was…and neither do you.”

            Comment

            • Herlock Sholmes
              Commissioner
              • May 2017
              • 23382

              #36
              Originally posted by Richard Patterson View Post

              If you’re going to dismiss his professional assessment, the least you can do is engage with the evidence he presented...
              I just saw this and nearly spat out a mouthful of tea! The absolute irony of it. From a man that doesn’t ’engage.’

              Herlock Sholmes

              ”I don’t know who Jack the Ripper was…and neither do you.”

              Comment

              • Herlock Sholmes
                Commissioner
                • May 2017
                • 23382

                #37
                Originally posted by FISHY1118 View Post

                So you completley disagree with the known Proven ''Medical Technique'' of the way in which Mary Kellys heart was removed ?

                Forgive me i dont take your opinion on this matter seriously .



                [Apologies George]
                From Dr. Michael Biggs, modern day Forensic Pathologist (provided by Trevor):

                The Virchow “method” isn’t really a specific technique for removing the heart in particular, but it refers more generally to the principle of removing organs one-by-one for individual examination. My preference for most cases is to remove all the organs together as a single “block”, and then place them onto a dissection bench for systematic examination. However, in certain cases (e.g. stabbings) I will adopt the one-organ-at-a-time (Virchow) approach, as this makes it easier to follow stab wound tracks through the body (whereas removing them all together distorts measurements and makes it easier to lose track).

                Getting back to the reports you sent, where it says things like, “…the Pericardium was open below & the Heart absent…” this is what you might expect if the heart has been removed on its own (i.e. the “Virchow” method). For better access and to allow us to see the various vascular attachments, we tend to open the pericardium (fibrous sac enclosing the heart) using an inverted T-shape incision, so if the pericardium really was just “open below” then that implies that someone either didn’t know (or care) what they were doing, or didn’t have time to do it “properly”. So it goes against the person having anatomical skill/knowledge... but only very slightly…”


                So….forgive me i don't take your opinion on this matter seriously.
                Herlock Sholmes

                ”I don’t know who Jack the Ripper was…and neither do you.”

                Comment

                • Doctored Whatsit
                  Sergeant
                  • May 2021
                  • 842

                  #38
                  Originally posted by FISHY1118 View Post

                  So you completley disagree with the known Proven ''Medical Technique'' of the way in which Mary Kellys heart was removed ?

                  Forgive me i dont take your opinion on this matter seriously .



                  [Apologies George]
                  Also, I assume that you missed the quote from Virchow himself which was shown some time ago, to the effect that surgery in Victorian times was only beginning to catch up with what slaughterers had been able to do for a long time?

                  Comment

                  • Fiver
                    Assistant Commissioner
                    • Oct 2019
                    • 3494

                    #39
                    Originally posted by Richard Patterson View Post
                    First, “there’s not one shred of evidence against him or anyone else” is only true if we define evidence as “caught with a knife in hand.” What exists in Thompson’s case is documentary convergence: independent records that align with the killer’s known skills, timeline, psychology, and geography far more tightly than for any other suspect. He’s not one among millions “living in London.” He was living rough within a few hundred yards of multiple murder sites during the killings, in Providence Row night refuge on Crispin Street, just beside Miller’s Court. That’s the epicentre, not a random point on a map.
                    * There is no consensus on the Ripper's skills, so no suspect can be included or excluded based on that.
                    * We have no timeline for most of the suspects during the Ripper murders, including Thompson.
                    * You claim the Ripper profile matches Thompson. The creator of the Ripper profile said it matched David Cohen.
                    * You have yet to provide evidence that Thompson was living in the Providence Row night refuge during the time of the murders. If he was, than means Thompson was one of thousands living or working near the murder sites.

                    There is no evidence against Thompson or anyone else.
                    "The full picture always needs to be given. When this does not happen, we are left to make decisions on insufficient information." - Christer Holmgren

                    "Unfortunately, when one becomes obsessed by a theory, truth and logic rarely matter." - Steven Blomer

                    Comment

                    • Fiver
                      Assistant Commissioner
                      • Oct 2019
                      • 3494

                      #40
                      Originally posted by Richard Patterson View Post
                      Second, you downplay his medical training. Thompson didn’t just attend a few lectures—he studied six years at Owen’s College, Manchester, attached to the Manchester Royal Infirmary, then one of Britain’s major trauma hospitals. Students there assisted in operations on factory workers mangled by machinery, often without anaesthetic. They learned to restrain victims, cut fast, control blood flow, and protect themselves from arterial spray. The “butcher versus surgeon” distinction collapses right there: Thompson’s training combined both skill sets.
                      If you read what I wrote, you would know that I have never downplayed Thompson's medical knowledge. I have pointed this out before,yet you persist in your false claims about what I said.

                      Originally posted by Richard Patterson View Post
                      Third, claiming he lacked “strength” or “practice” misreads the record. Tuberculosis doesn’t preclude bursts of functional strength—especially in a man still able to roam London by foot for miles nightly. His gaunt physique was consistent with witness descriptions of the suspect, not disqualifying.
                      I have never claimed that Thompson lacked practice. You would know this if you read what I actually said.

                      Thompson was dealing with TB, addition, and living rough on the streets. His physical condition makes it unlikely that he had the strength to commit the murders.

                      None of the witnesses described any of the suspects as gaunt. That's another provably false statement from you.

                      "He was a man of over 40 years by the look of him. He appeared to be a little taller than the woman. In my opinion he looked like foreigner - very dark. He looked, I think, like what is called shabby genteel." - Elizabeth Long

                      "I should think he was about the same height as myself - 5 feet 7 inches. He was of average build." - James Brown

                      The Coroner - "Was he thin or stout?"
                      William Marshall - "Rather stoutish. He looked decently dressed."

                      "He had no whiskers, but I did not notice him much. I should say he was twenty-eight years of age. He was of respectable appearance, but I could not state what he was." - PC William Smith

                      "[Israel] Schwartz cannot say whether the two men were together or known to each other. Upon being taken to the mortuary Schwartz identified the body as that of the woman he had seen & he thus describes the first man, who threw the woman down: age about 30 ht, 5 ft 5 in. comp. fair hair dark, small brown moustache, full face, broad shouldered, dress, dark jacket & trousers black cap with peak, had nothing in his hands. Second man age 35 ht. 5 ft 11in. comp. fresh, hair light brown, moustache brown, dress dark overcoat, old black hard felt hat wide brim, had a clay pipe in his hand."

                      "age 30 ht. 5 ft. 7 or 8 in. comp. fair fair moustache, medium built, dress pepper & salt colour loose jacket, grey cloth cap with peak of same colour, reddish handkerchief tied in a knot, round neck, appearance of a sailor."​ - Joseph Lawende

                      "Description age about 34 or 35. height 5ft6 complexion pale, dark eyes and eye lashes slight moustache, curled up each end, and hair dark, very surley looking dress long dark coat, collar and cuffs trimmed astracan. And a dark jacket under. Light waistcoat dark trousers dark felt hat turned down in the middle. Button boots and gaiters with white buttons. Wore a very thick gold chain white linen collar. Black tie with horse shoe pin. Respectable appearance walked very sharp. Jewish appearance." - George Hutchinson ​



                      "The full picture always needs to be given. When this does not happen, we are left to make decisions on insufficient information." - Christer Holmgren

                      "Unfortunately, when one becomes obsessed by a theory, truth and logic rarely matter." - Steven Blomer

                      Comment

                      • Fiver
                        Assistant Commissioner
                        • Oct 2019
                        • 3494

                        #41
                        Originally posted by Richard Patterson View Post
                        Fourth, your statement that he was “probably in hospital when Kelly was murdered” is wrong by chronology. The records show his admission followed the Kelly killing. The timing of his confinement—within days of the final murder—is precisely what FBI profilers like Douglas predicted would explain the Ripper’s sudden cessation.
                        Douglas believed David Cohen was the Ripper. Feel to provide the records that show Thompson was admitted to the hospital after the Kelly murder.

                        Originally posted by Richard Patterson View Post
                        Finally, saying he had “no history of violence” ignores the psychological dimension. The Ripper’s pathology was hidden, ritualised, and displaced into symbolic or spiritual language—precisely the form Thompson’s writings and habits reveal. His poetry isn’t “disturbing” by coincidence; it’s a coded expression of control, sin, purification, and blood.
                        Stating that Thompson had no history of violence is a fact. There are no records of him ever attacking anyone. Some of the images in Thompson's writing are disturbing, but the same is true of many other authors and artists of the time.

                        "The full picture always needs to be given. When this does not happen, we are left to make decisions on insufficient information." - Christer Holmgren

                        "Unfortunately, when one becomes obsessed by a theory, truth and logic rarely matter." - Steven Blomer

                        Comment

                        • Fiver
                          Assistant Commissioner
                          • Oct 2019
                          • 3494

                          #42
                          Originally posted by Richard Patterson View Post
                          When modern comparative systems—AI or human-led—are tasked to score suspects strictly on evidence alignment across these categories (skill, motive, opportunity, geography, behaviour, and cessation), Thompson consistently ranks at or near the top. The resistance to that fact isn’t analytical—it’s emotional, born from the discomfort of watching an established poet fit the most infamous criminal profile in modern history with unsettling precision.
                          You started a thread about using AI to look at Thompson as a Ripper suspect. I used the exact questions you asked, word for word.

                          Here's a few things the AIs said.

                          "Even without his writings, Francis Thompson’s life — while full of pain, mental strain, and eerie overlaps — does not provide hard evidence that he was Jack the Ripper." - Chat GPT

                          "Francis Thompson remains an interesting literary and psychological case, but there is no solid evidence linking him to the crimes—only poetic interpretations and circumstantial claims that surfaced decades after the fact." - ChatGPT​

                          "Thompson's case rests on a pattern of circumstantial connections (medical knowledge, presence, violent writing, and a relationship failure), while Kosminski's is rooted in contemporary police suspicion and disputed modern forensic analysis. Therefore, based on the historical documentation of police interest and the contested DNA analysis, Kosminski has a comparatively stronger, albeit still non-conclusive, case." - Google Gemini

                          ​"Francis Thompson was a renowned English poet, best known for his work "The Hound of Heaven." There is no historical evidence or credible suspicion linking him to Jack the Ripper.​' - AI Chat

                          "Francis Thompson's connection to the case is nonexistent.​" - AI Chat​

                          "While Francis Thompson was almost certainly not Jack the Ripper, comparing his darkly spiritual poetry to the brutality of the Ripper crimes reveals shared motifs of urban decay, pursuit, suffering, and bodily imagery." - ChatGPT​

                          "The Hound of Heaven": Thompson's most famous poem describes the soul's flight from God, only to be relentlessly pursued by a loving but powerful entity. The tone is one of fervent, overwrought Catholic mysticism and deep introspection. This is in stark contrast to the Ripper murders, which were characterized by a complete absence of any perceived spiritual or redemptive meaning for the victims." - Google Gemini

                          "If we exclude his writing and only look at his life, the case that Francis Thompson was Jack the Ripper hinges on:

                          His presence in the area
                          His medical training
                          His mental instability and drug use
                          His transient, impoverished lifestyle
                          A claimed relationship with a prostitute

                          But none of these are unique to him — thousands of men in London at the time fit similar profiles.
                          " - Chat GPT​

                          "It is important to note that this theory is highly debated, and the evidence is entirely circumstantial, with no direct proof connecting Thompson to the crimes.​" - Google Gemini​

                          "There is no credible evidence or historical basis to suggest that Francis Thompson, the poet and essayist known for his spiritual writings and poetry, was Jack the Ripper. Such a claim is unfounded and not supported by any factual information. " - AI Chat​
                          "The full picture always needs to be given. When this does not happen, we are left to make decisions on insufficient information." - Christer Holmgren

                          "Unfortunately, when one becomes obsessed by a theory, truth and logic rarely matter." - Steven Blomer

                          Comment

                          Working...
                          X