Jack, Son of Jack

[Paddy]

Maybea can you give me a link to what Mr West said please?
Its strange I have a friend whos parents came from Ireland back a bit and she was born in Everton Liverpool name of Wilson. I seem to think her dad was called Isaac. I will give her a ring tomorrow and ask if she knew of this family.
I take it no one has found Mary Jane Wilson in 1891 census?

Pat................................

[MayBea]

Yes, Paddy. She would have been 10 months old.

That's why I think she might be George West's Birkenhead Mary Kelly. He doesn't mention if the child is male or female, perhaps because the child was too young for him to tell the gender.

[Paddy]

Christina

It actually says Christina is 10, so this could have meant to be 10 months old ?

[Paddy]

1881 census

Having found Robert and Mary Wilsons marriage cert that states Marys dad was John Kelly a Joiner.
They are probably these I think in Liverpool 1881. You may already have them?.....

RG11/3594 page 47

Robert Wilson b 1854 Head Liverpool Baker
Mary b 1855 wife ..
Robert b 1874 son ..
Christina b 1871 daughter
John Kelly b1824 Visitor Ireland Joiner..

Pat.........................

[GUT]

G'Day Elena

Some speculate [think] he was related to Mary Jame Kelly, the victim of Jacky.

[Elenahoyos66]

So, wait, I'm confused - - are we making the assumption that this man is related to the Mary Jane Kelly?

Or are we just trying to figure out why this man has changed his name on occasion, and that to the curious, it is a puzzling action?

[MayBea]

Here is a thread identifying a woman matching Mary Kelly's newspaper description and sent in as a tip to the Met by a retired Birkenhead police inspector, George West.
http://www.jtrforums.com/showthread.php?t=17006

This "Birkenhead MJK" matches Jack Wilson's mother.

George West also mentions the woman living with her mother in Birkenhead. This also turned out to match Jack Wilson's mother.

His grandmother is in Birkenhead with his aunt in 1881.

* Civil parish: Tranmere
County/Island: Cheshire
Street Address: 101 Peel St
Registration district: Birkenhead

Household Members: Name Age

John Dixon 65
Ann Dixon 68
Ellen Dixon 14
Ann A. Dixon 29
George Dixon 1
Mary Kelly 60

[MayBea]

Here is the 1861 Census putting Jack Wilson's uncle's sister-in-law, Angelica Gould, in the residence of a cotton broker. The uncle's name is Henry Kelly, married to Margaret Gould.

In the course of my research, I asked a living relative of Liverpool cotton broker, Augustus Agelasto, if there were any Ripper tales in his family and he said he hadn't heard of any.

William John Kelly married the alleged goddaughter of the Earl of Carnarvon. Her family were certainly servants of Carnarvon, based on Census records putting her aunt and uncle, Elizabeth Ryan and Pierre (Fund, sic) Funel, with Lady Carnarvon at Pixton Park in 1891.

We can believe that Ripper stories were bandied about by the Carnarvons since sources put the Royal Conspiracy originating with one of their relatives, Caroline Acland.

http://books.google.ca/books?id=FW8rAQAAQBAJ&pg=PA360&lpg=PA360&dq=caroline+acland+stowell&source=bl&ots=ue4yVtJND5&sig=lLCeHkoCOafEazsYvy_Ulb0h1Mg&hl=en&sa=X&ei=xhTYUtS1B8PmyQHMkoDYDg&ved=0CDQQ6AEwAQ#v=onepage&q=caroline%20acland%20stowell&f=false

[MayBea]

I ordered a couple of incorrect birth certificates when I was looking for William John Wilson's. They are from London in 1883 and Lancaster in '84 because I thought he might be older and might be born outside of Liverpool. I also found a Liverpool certificate from 1896 on Google images.

The delays in reporting are 9 days and 42 days and 44 days.

So it looks like the new parents wait until right up to the legal limit of 42 and go over. Although this is not a representative sample, it looks like you might be right, Penhalion. 54 days might not be significant.

[Penhalion]

I don't find the delay in reporting the birth to be significant, even if it went beyond the legal parameters. My father was born at home in 1920 and didn't get a birth certificate until he needed one to start grade school. This wasn't in some small rural town either, he was born and raised in Chicago. If John was born in the home, then they might not have gotten around to registering his birth until quite some time afterwards. An interesting question would be if there are similar delays in reporting which are evident in other children born in that area in the general time frame.

[MayBea]

No, I never considered Edith Wilson. William only claimed Christina as his sister.

Christina went into the Fazakerley Cottage Homes in 1890 and then got married in 1899 to Robert Ironside and moved to Scotland.

http://boards.ancestry.com/localities.britisles.england.lan.general/14555.6/mb.ashx

You're right about the Salvation Army operating in Liverpool, even in the 1880s. So William could have been referring to the Sally Ann there instead of in Whitechapel.

[Paddy]

Edith Wilson

Did you ever consider the Edith Wilson baptised 1888 in Everton st Chrysostom Liverpool, as a sister for your chap?
She was brought in an baptised by a man called David Ingrams? in 1888
but her mother and father were called Robert and Mary.
There was an Edith Wilson in the Ripley Hospital in 1891 census aged 11.
Did you find what happened to Christina?

I found the following info on a Ripley Hospital website

Ripley St Thomas School began life as Ripley Hospital, an endowed school founded by Mrs. Julia Ripley in memory of her husband, Thomas Ripley, who was a native of Lancaster and a merchant of Liverpool. The school buildings and grounds are most attractive, occupying an elevated site giving open views to the City of Lancaster and the Lake District hills beyond. It was opened on the 3 November, 1864 "amid great public rejoicing". Originally endowed for the education of an equal number of boys and girls - altogether 300 in number - the parents of whom had to have lived for at least 2 years immediately preceding the death of the father either within 15 miles of Lancaster Priory, or 7 miles of Liverpool Cathedral.

I also read that the Salvation Army were active in Liverpool.

Pat............................

[MayBea]

Sorry scrub round last posting re the Army Arthur Sullivan....
He is son of Thomas and Alice so definitely not the right one...

The name change to Arthur Sullivan did not occur until his marriage in London in 1919. He was John Sullivan in WWI fighting with the Royal Warwickshire Regiment.

He re-enlisted in the Royal Horse and Field Artillery under the name John Wilson sometime prior to going to India where he is found in the 1911 Census.

If something strange happened to him to make him change his name to Sullivan, it would have happened while in India or upon his return. He was seriously injured but I don't know if that would warrant a name change and a denial of being a Wilson after his retirement as a soldier.

[MayBea]

Robert and Mary married Sept 9th 1872
witnesses W Cavanagh (signed) andElizabeth Forcroft (mark)
Marys dad is John a Joiner....

Pat, this is the correct marriage. Robert is listed as a baker.

The Robert, baker, you found married to a Mary who gave birth to a John in October 1888 are the wrong ones. They are still on Amos St. with Mary's parents in 1891. Their last name is Matthews, not Kelly. John is missing.

1891 Census
Liverpool
24 Amos St

Joseph Matthews lorry driver b Ireland
Mary Matthews wife b Scotland
Robert Wilson son in law baker b Liverpool
Mary Wilson wife b Liverpool

[Paddy]

Apologies

Sorry scrub round last posting re the Army Arthur Sullivan....
He is son of Thomas and Alice so definitely not the right one

Pat................................