Jack, Son of Jack

[miss marple]

Joe went into quite a lot of detail about his relationship with Mary, He never said they' went on drunken benders together'. When he met Mary he was working as a fish porter, quite a good job and able to support her. They moved three times in 1887 but living together. They settled in Miller's Court at the beginning of 1888. They were evicted from their lodgings in Brushfield st at the end of 1887 for not paying the rent, but drinking with it.
Joe and Mary were very close during their co habitation, there is no suggestion they were separated. I am sure Joe saw it as a permanent arrangement until he lost his job. We know Joe was capable of great loyalty, he was with his next partner Louisa until his death.
Julia Venturney says Joe was very kind to Mary' spoiling her with gifts of meat' and continued to keep an eye on her after he left.
The relationship became strained after Joe lost his job. He could no longer support her and was doing casual labouring and she wanted to go back on the streets, the rows about that led to Jo leaving on Oct 30th.
Because you have a theory, you have to distort the facts to fit it.
At the bottom line there is nothing in the life of Mary Kelly of Miller's Court that fits in with the life of a Liverpool Mary Wilson,
There is nothing to connect them, no contemporary evidence that she came from Liverpool. If she lied about her past, there would have been elements of truth, its very hard to totally reinvent yourself but you can built lies on what you know, where you were born, where you were brought up.She was an Irish girl with connections to Wales. I am a londoner and if I wanted to lie about my background, I could not say I came from liverpool as I dont know it.
Of course then they is Mary's pre Joe life, Radcliffe Highway etc.
The invisible child is a problem too.

Miss Marple

[GUT]

G'Day Miss Marple

I am sure Joe saw it as a permanent arrangement until he lost his job.

But there is really no proof one way or the other is there. If he was so committed to her why leave just because she had other women sleep over.

On the other hand his regular visits to appear to be a man trying to woo her back.

We know Joe was capable of great loyalty, he was with his next partner Louisa until his death.

But don't you know anybody who has a short relationship [perhaps even a number of them] and then settles down for life? I sure do.

[Albert]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Livia
Hi MayBea,

You've mentioned the Salvation Army several times, so you
may find this interesting:

http://booth.lse.ac.uk/...
Thanks and hi, Livia.

Thanks for this link (I used to volunteer for the Sally Ann) and thanks also for your previous research regarding Robert Wilson's family.

Did you know that the Stirrup family you found might only be half related to Robert Wilson. His older sister, Mary Ann Wilson/Stirrup, has a Family Tree with the mother listed as someone named Mary Jane Kelly, of all things, and she doesn't appear to be Robert's mother, Rose.

Hi Livia and Maybea
In case of any confusion William Booth 1829-1912, Founder of the Salvation Army: Charles Booth 1840-1916, Creator of the Poverty Map.
Cheers
Albert

[MayBea]

...When he met Mary he was working as a fish porter, quite a good job and able to support her...Joe and Mary were very close during their co habitation, there is no suggestion they were separated...There is ... no contemporary evidence that she came from Liverpool... She was an Irish girl with connections to Wales.

Joe would have worked 12 to 14 hour days, I'm guessing, then sleeping while Mary might be out working or drinking. When would they even see each other?

How long would it take for a woman to deliver her fourth child?

How hard is it to drop it off at a nearby relative's or friend's house for a while and then go back a month later and take it to Liverpool to her mother?

I believe in Sherlock Holmes' process of elimination. Mary Jane Kelly had to be someone. The object is to eliminate the candidates. Find her alive or find her dead somewhere else! One caveat: Jack's mother has been around for 8 years at least.

Jack's mother lived all her life in a Welsh neighbourhood. Just check out the residents in and around Penrhyn Street in 1881.

I personally believe the Street Missionary, likely a seasoned Salvation Army officer, who testified that she was not Welsh. He said she was Irish which means, to me, her family bypassed Wales and came straight to England.

[MayBea]

...The invisible child is a problem too. Miss Marple

Mary Kelly definitely is rumoured to have 'had' a child, whether with her husband 'Davies', or someone else. This child is said to be anywhere from 2 years old (Mrs. Felix) to 10.

http://forum.casebook.org/archive/index.php/t-4466.html

But there is a difference between having a child and having a child with you. No one is saying Mary Kelly had her own child with her.

Thanks and hi, Livia. Did you know that the Stirrup family you found might only be half related to Robert Wilson. His older sister, Mary Ann Wilson/Stirrup, has a Family Tree with the mother listed as someone named Mary Jane Kelly, of all things, and she doesn't appear to be Robert's mother, Rose.

This could explain why Jack was able to visit his Wilson cousins in St. Helens even if Mary Jane Wilson abandoned her husband and had Jack with another man. The Wilsons were Kellys too.

[MayBea]

G'Day Miss Marple

But there is really no proof one way or the other is there. If he was so committed to her why leave just because she had other women sleep over.

On the other hand his regular visits to appear to be a man trying to woo her back.

Thanks for jumping in on this, GUT.

What do you think about the idea that Barnett was always keeping an eye on Mary?

Doesn't the recently popular "transactions" thread you've posted on throw suspicion on Barnett's account of their arrangements?

http://forum.casebook.org/showthread...016#post287016

[GUT]

G'Day May Bea

I'd say that he was clearly fixated on her as opposed to keeping an eye on her. Clearly to my mind he was either not over her or extremely jealous. It is interesting that he says he was still giving her money, but out of work. I wonder where he was getting his money from?

[MayBea]

Four news reports from the U.S. and Canada said that Mary and her porter "husband", i.e. Barnett, lived together at "spasmodic intervals".

The articles all printed the same report.

http://www.casebook.org/press_reports/evening_star/881109.html

There must have been some time of separation, don't you think? I still wonder about their arrangements between moves. Did they separate or not?

[MayBea]

I found out that according to the James Kelly theory, Mary Kelly ran away from Liverpool bearing his child. She allegedly aborted the baby but I thought I'd put up Kelly's Casebook photo next to William Wilson.

http://books.google.ca/books?id=whakTPgHW3IC&pg=PT56&dq=ripper+james+kelly+liverpool+aborted&hl=en&sa=X&ei=XphaU-urIojM2QWHjYHAAw&ved=0CC0Q6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=ripper%20james%20kelly%20liverpool%20aborted&f=false

[miss marple]

I admire Maybea's heroic effects to mold and shape her Liverpudlian Mary into the form of Limerick Mary. She pours forth details of this family's genealogy, ignores any facts that interfer with her thesis, dismisses friends, contemporaries and and any evidence that disagrees with her thesis.

But look carefully, its all smoke and mirrors.

Miss Marple

[MayBea]

The only smoke here is coming from Mary Kelly's macho-fueled fantasy of fatal coal-mine explosions, iron foundries, second battalions, and testosterone-filled families with seven males!

But, of course, Joe Barnett truthfully and correctly relayed Mary's story of her East End whereabouts and acquaintances...so he must be telling the truth about everything else!

Chris Scott should have written another Apotheosis article--this one about Joe!

[MayBea]

The connection can now be made between Jack and the Royals pre-1919 (when Jack married the goddaughter of the Earl of Carnarvon), through the cotton trade and the Rothschilds.

The Earl was the colonial secretary under Benjamin Disreali who had Rothschild connections through MPs Nathan and Lionel Rothschild. The Rothschilds started as cotton goods merchants.

Through the cotton trade and banking, you have the connection to the expatriot Greek cotton merchants and merchant bankers, Agelasto/Ralli families.

Jack's aunt's sister was a servant in the Augustus S. Agelasto household in Liverpool.

[Cogidubnus]

eh?

Dave

[MayBea]

I'm sorry, Dave. I didn't mean to be obtuse. I started out trying to make some sort of link between Mary Jane Kelly's possibly bogus claim to have come from Carnarvon, or something that sounds like it, with the Earl.

In the end, any Carnarvon/cotton merchant connection, that provides a family link that goes back to the 1880s, could relate to MJW, Jack Wilson's mother, and a possible track for her to London similar to his.

Jack wound up, in London after the war, marrying into a family with Royal connections. If it was because of already established links, then perhaps his mother also journeyed to London and established herself the same way 35 years earlier.

[Hatchett]

Hi,

I think Joe got the money from doing casual work, which would have been only a pittance compared to what he had before.

Pehaps he still gave her money, and still called on her because he believed that their break up was only a blip in what he believed was a long term relationship.

In other words it could have been a one sided heart break of a human tragedy that happens every day.

Best wishes.