The Stephen Knight Zone.

[harry]

Herlock,
I first became aware about the mid nineteen thirties,then in 1939 from the children of Ellen Crook,daughter of Cornilius Crook. I do not know if the Christian name is correct( Cornilius),the document I read from is a little vague.The Crook house,in 1920, was called the Grotto,and was situated in the village of Churchdown,in the county of Gloucestershire. I know of only two direct descendents of Cornilius who may still lbe alive,there may be more,as I believe he had several children.One of those I know came into possession of family papers on the death of Ellen's eldest child.Among them w as a reference to myself,that is how the descendent was able to contact me,and how I became aware of his existence. So long before Knight came forward with his information,there was a family named Crook claiming royal connections.One other small piece of interest.Ellen was most always referred to as Nell.

[Herlock Sholmes]

Hi Harry, I’m no researcher but I’m taking advantage of the three free days on FindMyPast. I’ve just looked for Cornelius Crook in the census records and it came up with (from 1911)

Cornelius aged 72 married to Sarah Ann aged 59. Their house is called The Folly, Churchdown. He’s listed as a Labourer and she as s Charwoman. They have a son and two daughters staying. Francis Cornelius, Susannah and Ellen. There’s also a grandson living there called Francis William Davis. He’s 6 but he can’t be Ellen’s because she’s listed as 17 and occupied as a Daily Girl.

I don’t know if this is the family Harry?

[PaulB]

I haven’t read all the postings but is there anything there pertaining to the recent discoveries related to Captain Verney (MJK’s Gentleman?!) who is linked to Sickert through Mrs. Cobden-Sickert’s working with Lady Verney and Florence Nightingale? As distractions go, it’s one of the best. I think Knight and Gorman missed the boat to France on this one.

Like you, I haven't read through all the posts, but I'd appreciate it if you could point me to the source where it is stated that Mrs Cobden-Sickert worked with Lady Verney. Many thanks
Paul

[Trapperologist]

Like you, I haven't read through all the posts, but I'd appreciate it if you could point me to the source where it is stated that Mrs Cobden-Sickert worked with Lady Verney. Many thanks
Paul

Sorry, Paul, I had the wrong Sickert. It wasn’t his wife. It was his sister, Anna Swanwick. They were suffragists.

[harry]

Herlock,
You have the right family.
The information on Ellens marriage certificate,she married on February 14th 1920,lists her age as 26,spinster ,occupation domestic service,and place of residence as 'The Grotto' Churchdown.The father Cornelius is listed as deceased.A witness is named William James Crook.The grandson you named must have been of another family member,possibly Susannha.
Ellen had five children,four girls and one boy.To my memory she had only one grandchild,a boy.Last I know he was married and living in Cornwall.All Ellen's children are deceased.
A granddaughter of Cornelius, was at one time living in Western Australia.If alive may still be.She married a person of Italian descent,a fisherman by trade.I have no memory of her maiden name.
Cornelius,I believe,was born in 1853,so I presume any tales of royal connections came from him.The question is, was Cornelius connected to Annie Crook or Walter Sickert?
If the latter,it would explain a family mystery.

[PaulB]

Sorry, Paul, I had the wrong Sickert. It wasn’t his wife. It was his sister, Anna Swanwick. They were suffragists.

Sorry to be a pain, but just to make sure I have it right, but do you mean Helena Swanwick, Sickert's sister, who was indeed a suffragist, or do you mean that it was the translator Anna Swanwick who had the connection to Verney?

[Trapperologist]

Yes, I meant Helena Swanwick.

My main point is that everyone knew about Captain Verney post arrest and trial in 1890/1. The newspapers reported that his procuress was procuring for 2 gentlemen. A rumour went around that the other gentleman was the future King Edward VII and Verney was taking the fall. (See JTRforums.com)

That and Verney’s publicized keeping of the procuress in a home in Kennington in 1886 when she had a “secret” illegitimate child that died shortly after, and Mary’s own story suggesting a connection with Verney and this French Lady, and you have the earmarks of the Ripper Royal Conspiracy without going far afield.

[Herlock Sholmes]

Herlock,
You have the right family.
The information on Ellens marriage certificate,she married on February 14th 1920,lists her age as 26,spinster ,occupation domestic service,and place of residence as 'The Grotto' Churchdown.The father Cornelius is listed as deceased.A witness is named William James Crook.The grandson you named must have been of another family member,possibly Susannha.
Ellen had five children,four girls and one boy.To my memory she had only one grandchild,a boy.Last I know he was married and living in Cornwall.All Ellen's children are deceased.
A granddaughter of Cornelius, was at one time living in Western Australia.If alive may still be.She married a person of Italian descent,a fisherman by trade.I have no memory of her maiden name.
Cornelius,I believe,was born in 1853,so I presume any tales of royal connections came from him.The question is, was Cornelius connected to Annie Crook or Walter Sickert?
If the latter,it would explain a family mystery.

It’s interesting stuff Harry. I’m thinking of joining Ancestry after Christmas to do some family research. I’ll have a look into Cornelius.

[PaulB]

Yes, I meant Helena Swanwick.

My main point is that everyone knew about Captain Verney post arrest and trial in 1890/1. The newspapers reported that his procuress was procuring for 2 gentlemen. A rumour went around that the other gentleman was the future King Edward VII and Verney was taking the fall. (See JTRforums.com)

That and Verney’s publicized keeping of the procuress in a home in Kennington in 1886 when she had a “secret” illegitimate child that died shortly after, and Mary’s own story suggesting a connection with Verney and this French Lady, and you have the earmarks of the Ripper Royal Conspiracy without going far afield.

I appreciate your point and it is definitely worth looking into, although I suspect that it might be hard now to make any firm connection between Verney and Kelly. I'm sorry for the questioning, but I didn't want to assume you meant Helena Swanwick. Og course, Helena knowing Lady Verney doesn't mean she knew much about Verney's activities that she communicated them to Walter, but it's an interesting possible link.

[harry]

Herlock,
I have established that Cornelius had at least six children.Nellie was probably a nickname for Helen.The son who went to Australia was named Francis Cornelius Crook.He died in Perth,Western Australia many years ago.Trying now to find descendents in Australia.Helen left at least one physical piece of evidence that might shed light on the family's claim.I have a good idea where it might be.

[Trapperologist]

I appreciate your point and it is definitely worth looking into, although I suspect that it might be hard now to make any firm connection between Verney and Kelly.... Helena knowing Lady Verney doesn't mean she knew much about Verney's activities that she communicated them to Walter, but it's an interesting possible link.

Thanks, Paul. All of his activities were well known after 1891 since it was a major scandal and it was reported to have started in 1884, and to have involved the Kelly Library at Vigo St, the poste restante, from the Royal Conspiracy and the Cleveland St. Scandal. This was all published in 1891, things going on since 1884, as opposed to something in 1890 in the Mediterranean which had to be backdated and locations switched, not that that story didn't make it into the real story with a change of royal brother.

[Trapperologist]

P.S. The Captain Verney story was dug up by Gary because of it's "uncanny" similarity to Mary Jane Kelly's story even though it was inconvenient to certain theories (namely the MJK came to London as a prostitute theory). However I was graciously allowed to use this regardless. Thank you, Gary. Others I'm sure will be welcomed to use it as well if it works for them or can be made to work for everyone.

[NickB]

For completeness, there was a fifth book that Stephen Knight was involved with. He is named as co-author, with Bernard Taylor, of 'Perfect Murder' which was published two years after his death. The two chapters written by Knight are 'The Brighton Trunk Murder' which includes an account of Knight's 3-day interview with Tony Mancini in 1978 and 'The Witchcraft Murder' about the murder of Charles Walton.

[Losmandris]

I have no doubt that this is all one massive tall tale, however it is now so entwined with 'Ripperlore' there is no escaping from it. Where it is clearly bonkers, it always has had a positive impact on the case in the fact that so much has been uncovered but people trying to either prove or disprove it validity.

I almost wish that something like this tale was reality as the truth is far more sad, grim and un-glamorous.

Tristan

[Trapperologist]

I almost wish that something like this tale was reality as the truth is far more sad, grim and un-glamorous.

Tristan

The story of baronet Captain Verney and his "kept" woman/partner in crime, Eugenie Roullier, and her/their secret child and his suspected covered-up trips to France with presumably Mary Jane Kelly can never compete with next-in-line PAV and a secret wedding to a Catholic and a secret royal next-to-next-in-line child, and a cover-up and murder conspiracy involving the Freemasons, artists, and the Queens surgeon.