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  • #16
    Originally posted by etenguy View Post
    There is something very compelling about the Royal Conspiracy Theory, it has all the elements of a great dramatic story, not unlike Dan Brown's Da Vinci Code. And it does make some sense as a theory, though as we now know thanks to research by Simon Wood, the details are not accurate to the point we know that the theory as presented is not valid.

    If I were to play devil's advocate, I might wonder whether chinese whispers had any influence on how the details were changed over time before becoming public. If that was the case, is there some part of the story which is based on actual events and rather than dismiss and move on, is there any merit in critically assessing to potentially find a truth hidden in the story?
    This is the point that Paul Begg has made Eten. Obviously the story came from somewhere and someone. We have the elements from The Malta Story which gives us a possible secret Royal Marriage and offspring. Then we have Mornington Crescent The Lodger story with the connection to Sickert. We have Gorman and Alice Margaret. We just need the mastermind behind the whole thing. Did Joseph receive the story as he told it or did he (or Harry Jonas) modify it to add intrigue and to make it saleable?
    Regards

    Herlock






    "Crime is common. Logic is rare. Therefore it is upon the logic rather than upon the crime that you should dwell.”

    Comment


    • #17
      Originally posted by harry View Post
      Why would the Crook family living at Churchtown in Gloucestershire,hint at a Royal connection. Wa s there a connection between that family and Annie Elizabeth Crook?

      I haven’t heard of the Churchtown connection Harry? Who are they?
      Regards

      Herlock






      "Crime is common. Logic is rare. Therefore it is upon the logic rather than upon the crime that you should dwell.”

      Comment


      • #18
        No Herlock,you wouldn't have.I see I spelt the name of the village wrong.It should have been Churchdown.They were a family named Crook who claimed a connection to Royalty.This was long before Knight came on the scene.

        Comment


        • #19
          Originally posted by Herlock Sholmes View Post

          I don’t have the Sturgis book with me at the moment Kattrup but the impression that I got is that the Royal Archives had been checked and that the Danish Royal Family could find no evidence of Sickert’s Grandfather ever working for them. Sickert grew up in a household where money was really tight as his father barely made a living so it’s difficult to see how he could have done any work for the Monarchy either without it being mentioned as a big deal.
          The main Danish artists’ encyclopedia has entries for both father and grandfather.
          For instance, about the father: “It is said he received financial support from Christian VIII.”

          Looking at the footnotes, a lot of them are from various articles by Walter Sickert. Since an encyclopedia finds it necessary to use the uncertainty marker “it is said”, it seems the claim was never substantiated.
          However, it would not have been at all unusual for a young talented artist to be given a grant for his further edification. This does not rule out a later life in poverty.
          So it’s very possibly true, but what does it matter? Nothing.

          Comment


          • #20
            Originally posted by harry View Post
            No Herlock,you wouldn't have.I see I spelt the name of the village wrong.It should have been Churchdown.They were a family named Crook who claimed a connection to Royalty.This was long before Knight came on the scene.
            That’s interesting Harry. Where did you hear of this?
            Regards

            Herlock






            "Crime is common. Logic is rare. Therefore it is upon the logic rather than upon the crime that you should dwell.”

            Comment


            • #21
              Originally posted by Kattrup View Post

              The main Danish artists’ encyclopedia has entries for both father and grandfather.
              For instance, about the father: “It is said he received financial support from Christian VIII.”

              Looking at the footnotes, a lot of them are from various articles by Walter Sickert. Since an encyclopedia finds it necessary to use the uncertainty marker “it is said”, it seems the claim was never substantiated.
              However, it would not have been at all unusual for a young talented artist to be given a grant for his further edification. This does not rule out a later life in poverty.
              So it’s very possibly true, but what does it matter? Nothing.

              Thanks for that Kattrup.







              Thanks for tat
              Regards

              Herlock






              "Crime is common. Logic is rare. Therefore it is upon the logic rather than upon the crime that you should dwell.”

              Comment


              • #22
                Just a little something to throw into the Stephen Knight mix.

                We need to take into account that Stephen died young, and was being affected by a brain tumor for the last years of his life, so he never gave an in depth defence of his book. Many things stated as "facts" have been clearly disproved, but we'll never know if he was aware of these errors, fed inaccurate information or was just being liberal with what he had to work with. Since before 'Final Solution' he was a local reporter, we can't draw any inference from his previous work. But, his other published book, 'The Brotherhood', also suffered from severe criticism, largely due to relying on anonymous sources. The defence for the criticism in this case is always the same, "it's a conspiracy".

                I read The Brotherhood many years ago and thought it was ground breaking. Unfortunately, it never stood up to scrutiny, and showed that at best, Stephen was probably too reliant on taking things at face value, and not checking the provenance of his 'sources'.

                The man wrote two books, both criticised in the same manner. Both regarded as fiction.
                ​​​​​​​But then, 'they' would say that.....

                Your evening of swing has been cancelled.

                Comment


                • #23
                  The main Danish artists’ encyclopedia has entries for both father and grandfather.
                  For instance, about the father: “It is said he received financial support from Christian VIII.”

                  Looking at the footnotes, a lot of them are from various articles by Walter Sickert. Since an encyclopedia finds it necessary to use the uncertainty marker “it is said”, it seems the claim was never substantiated.
                  However, it would not have been at all unusual for a young talented artist to be given a grant for his further edification. This does not rule out a later life in poverty.
                  So it’s very possibly true, but what does it matter? Nothing.
                  I guess that what one finds when one digs a little deeper .

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    Good points Al. I’m certainly not trying to suggest that Knight was any kind of evil genius behind a fraud. It’s likelier that he simply got carried away when he heard this incredible/intriguing story and then tended to see everything in the light of it being true. Not the first and certainly not the last to be guilty of that. I can’t recall specifics but I seem to remember it being pointed out how he’d ignored inconvenient evidence. And of course the discoveries that Simon made in 1976 were all available to him had he looked.
                    Regards

                    Herlock






                    "Crime is common. Logic is rare. Therefore it is upon the logic rather than upon the crime that you should dwell.”

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      Originally posted by FISHY1118 View Post

                      I guess that what one finds when one digs a little deeper .
                      But this comes from info from Sickert himself Fishy. There’s no corroboration. How do we know that he wasn’t just trying to ‘big up’ his family?

                      A more important question is why would Princess Alexander have chosen a struggling, unknown artist who was a minor member of an art movement that was shunned by the art establishment? Especially given the amount of establishment-approved painters who would have jumped at the chance of helping out Princess Alexandra?
                      Regards

                      Herlock






                      "Crime is common. Logic is rare. Therefore it is upon the logic rather than upon the crime that you should dwell.”

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        What it shows is, it cant just be dismissed with certainty that Sickerts family didnt or never have had ties with Danish Royalty as you and others have claimed , thats all.

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          Originally posted by Herlock Sholmes View Post

                          This is the point that Paul Begg has made Eten. Obviously the story came from somewhere and someone. We have the elements from The Malta Story which gives us a possible secret Royal Marriage and offspring. Then we have Mornington Crescent The Lodger story with the connection to Sickert. We have Gorman and Alice Margaret. We just need the mastermind behind the whole thing. Did Joseph receive the story as he told it or did he (or Harry Jonas) modify it to add intrigue and to make it saleable?
                          The Malta Story is interesting, and it is possible the brothers could have been confused. If we assumed both stories were true - then what an extraordinary unlikely coincidence.

                          Comment


                          • #28
                            Originally posted by FISHY1118 View Post
                            What it shows is, it cant just be dismissed with certainty that Sickerts family didnt or never have had ties with Danish Royalty as you and others have claimed , thats all.
                            All I’ve said Fishy is that there’s no evidence for it in terms of records. And also that because of Walter Sickert’s status at the time of the murders it makes it, for me, unlikely in the extreme that Princess Alexander would have chosen him. You would also have expected Bertie to have had a say in his sons education (not to mention Victoria too of course)
                            Regards

                            Herlock






                            "Crime is common. Logic is rare. Therefore it is upon the logic rather than upon the crime that you should dwell.”

                            Comment


                            • #29
                              Originally posted by etenguy View Post

                              The Malta Story is interesting, and it is possible the brothers could have been confused. If we assumed both stories were true - then what an extraordinary unlikely coincidence.
                              The similarities are certainly striking Eten.
                              Regards

                              Herlock






                              "Crime is common. Logic is rare. Therefore it is upon the logic rather than upon the crime that you should dwell.”

                              Comment


                              • #30
                                Originally posted by Al Bundy's Eyes View Post
                                The man wrote two books

                                I believe he wrote 4 books. The two already mentioned, plus the non-fiction The Killing of Justice Godfrey, and Requiem at Rogano which was fiction and if I recall correctly Knight's 2nd book. The Final Solution being his first. Rogano was a good read, about a retired Scotland Yard inspector who works out that current murders by The Deptford Strangler are similar to murders in Rogano, Italy in the 15th century.
                                These are not clues, Fred.
                                It is not yarn leading us to the dark heart of this place.
                                They are half-glimpsed imaginings, tangle of shadows.
                                And you and I floundering at them in the ever vainer hope that we might corral them into meaning when we will not.
                                We will not.

                                Comment

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