The Davis Ward HOAX

[Ally]

[

A.---What are you referring to here about security for? The issue is whether Stephenson was in the Davis Ward, which he could only be if he was ill with a contagious disease !!!

This is not an accurate statement. You are presuming that Donston was right about the nature of the disease. I mean you call it a hoax that he would have been in Davis ward but take it as gospel that the gentleman had Typhoid. I did not at all read into Mr. Evans letter that it was a known certainty that Davis was a contagion ward. He said there wards LIKE Davis wards which were divided up into contagion rooms. This is not the same thing as saying that Davis itself was a contagion ward. You might want to clarify with him, and a copy of whatever official documentation that says for certainty that Davis was a contagion ward before you presume it was.

And you may wish to consider it a saga with no falsehoods or deceptions or omissions of facts....or a 'selling" of a non suspect into the mainstream of the field. Thats your decision. I prefer to call it a Hoax.

And you can make the decision to consider it a hoax but all that really means is you don't know what the word hoax means.

[Mike Covell]

George Marsh had told Inspector Roots on the 24th December 1888,

"Stephenson has shown me a discharge as a patient from the London Hospital. The name Stephenson is obliterated and that of Davis is marked in red ink"

If one actually looks at these records the name Stephenson is Not obliterated but the name of the ward is, a simple fact that Marsh got wrong in his statement and enough to cast resonable doubt on his statement.

The red ink is Not significant as whilst at the LH Archives there were numerous entries in both 1888 and 1889 records with ward names obliterated and red ink over the top.

And what about the investigation into Dr Davies, as a result of Stephenson's visit to the Yard?

According to hospital minutes and year books there wasn't one!
These were records for finances, staff problems, donations, complaints and other everyday incidents which were recorded at the time.

Yet the only mention of Dr Davies comes in later years when illness takes over and he misses several teaching classes.

[David Knott]

How,

If D'Onston and Evans were not in the same ward at some time, then how did D'Onston know of him (and of Morgan Davies?)

I would remind you that, contrary to what has been often assumed, Dr Morgan Davies was not working in the hospital at the time of the murders - he had his own practice in Goring Street. He was visiting Evans as a friend rather than a patient.

Is it not entirely possible that D'O spent time in both the Davis and Currie wards. I can only think of four people I have ever visited in hospital who were in for more than a day or two, and they all moved wards during their stays.

David

[Howard Brown]

Dave:

One other point of this whole discussion that hasn't been touched on is that no one knows for certain if there even WAS a Dr. Evans in the LH at the time.

The point that Mike and I are making is not whether Donston "was in the Davis Ward as a patient", one of the wards used for individuals with contagions, but that he would have been in the Davis Ward at all, since it housed people with contagious diseases. Clearly on the release, he is not mentioned as being a sufferer of a contagious disease. All of this should have been discussed a long time ago by Harris when he "investigated" Stephenson's sinecure at the LH. ( edited ".... " for clarity..)

I agree that people get jettisoned from one ward to the other, one floor to the other and all that. Thats indisputable. I know that first hand.

What is disputable is whether or not one would be jettisoned to a ward designated for those with contagious diseases, if one was in the hospital for a claim that was of a non-contagious illness or malady.

Donston's knowledge of either man may have been superficial at best. He was, after all, as you and I know, in the hospital for 134 days...ample time for him to learn the nitty gritty and lowdown on everyone from the head doctor to the orderlies.

That Stephenson mentions Davies visiting Evans doesn't mean that he was "treating" him, rather that he was visiting him only as a friend or at the behest of someone in the mans family. Again, this issue isn't the issue.

Say hello to Harrison,Dave...
-----------------------------------

Whether or not some feel the use of the word, "hoax" is inappropriate is really unimportant in the scheme of things. My original thought was to name it the "Big Lie"....hoax sounds a little more apropos, since the developer of this Hoax was so hellbent on "hoaxbusting" the Maybrick Diary and fell a little short.

It is a hoax when the basis and possibility of Stephenson being a suspect depends on the omission of facts germane to his stay in the LH by individuals who could have done the right thing, instead of perpetuating this fabrication that he was in either the Currie or Davis Wards with every opportunity to be-bop at night on his own free will, which is clearly and definitely a LIE.

No researcher or investigator worth the time of day would have NOT proceeded to ascertain whether conditions existed in the LH which would have prevented a patient from perambulating on his own unless they intended to foist a half-assed attempt at making a dollar or two on said "suspect" to a community of interested book-buyers, completionists, collectors, and Ripper groupies.

[Gideon Fell]

No researcher or investigator worth the time of day would have NOT proceeded to ascertain whether conditions existed in the LH which would have prevented a patient from perambulating on his own unless they intended to foist a half-assed attempt at making a dollar or two on said "suspect" to a community of interested book-buyers, completionists, collectors, and Ripper groupies.

I wonder which of these definitions each of us falls under, I don't think I'm a groupie!

[Ally]

Howard,

Once again, you have yet to show that Davis ward WAS a contagion ward. If Dr. Evans was no longer contagious, he may well have been moved out of a contagious ward, into a non-contagious ward.

Mr. Evans letter does NOT say Davis was a contagion ward. It said wards like Davis were used as a contagion ward which is a different thing. Mike sends him an email that says something along the lines of "Hey, we are investigating Donston's claim to having been in the Davis ward with a Typhoid patient. Would contagious Typhoid patients be housed with non-contagious patients?" Mr. Evans, having been prompted with the Davis ward name replies with it as an example" "Wards LIKE davis were used as a contagion room, split up etc". He does NOT say Davis ward was a contagious ward.

You are presuming without evidence what you wish to be true and presenting it as fact to the public based on a letter in which you are reading into it what you want it to say. By your own definition, aren't you guilty of perpetuating a hoax? I mean after all you are doing exactly what you are accusing Melvin Harris of having done...and Melvin had the facts on his side as Donston actually said he was in Davis ward. Hardly a hoax, and you here making up a hoax out of whole cloth.

Once again, I would recommend you clarify whether Davis ward was in fact a contagion ward before you assume itwas, because there is nothing in the letter you received that makes that a certainty.

[Tom_Wescott]

The descendants of Dr. Davies

Well...he actually described only Davies, no more or no less, as being as you mentioned.

We're both half-right. The 'sunken features' (or something similar) was about Davies specifically, but the 'sex lust' stuff was about medicos in general. Either way, D'Onston was a medico with sunken features so he was in essence describing himself the entire time.

For those who've come along since and don't know, I thought I'd mention that quite some time back (a couple years or so) I contacted a direct descendant of Dr. Davies who had absolutelly no idea that there was a Ripper connection. When I mentioned that someone had fingered his ancestor as the Ripper, all communication stopped and he had no interest in knowing more, saying only that it was a preposterous suggestion, which I'm inclined to agree with. Having looked at the remaining contents of Dr. Morgan Davies archives, I seem to remember some communication between Dr. Davies and a man named Evans. I thought at the time this may have been the Dr. Evans in question, who could very well have been a friend and colleague of Davies, explaining the nightly visits and lively discussions. All speculation on my part of course, but if anyone wants to pick up the trail and see what they can find out about Dr. Evans, it might prove fruitful.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[Howard Brown]

Dear Gideon Fell:

You're hardly a groupie,sor. Although I've heard you had nice gams,I'd hardly think that would qualify you as one.

Tom:

Thats par for the course with most people when someone approaches them with anything related to their kinfolk being suggested as a suspect, isn't it?

Thats nice work on your part. Thanks for bringing that up. I seem to remember you mentioning acquiring Davies-related material a long time ago.

Al:

I'll tell ya what I'll do....

I'll get in contact with this Evans fellow right away and I'll get a straight answer from him on whether or not the Davis Ward was a contagion ward in 1888. I will also ask whether or not patients without contagious diseases would be allowed near those with typhoid, such as this Dr. Evans.

[Ally]

That'd be great How. Make sure you also ask whether Typhoid patients were always dismissed from the contagion wards out of the hospital or if they were ever deemed non-contagious and moved to another ward after a certain period of time.

[Tom_Wescott]

Thats par for the course with most people when someone approaches them with anything related to their kinfolk being suggested as a suspect, isn't it?

No, some write books about it, others make up such ancestry tales as a way of showing off. But in my experience most people you approach are fascinated by the claim and want to know more. Case in point is the group photo in a recent issue of Rip of all the female Eddowes descendants. But some are more private about it, like the descendants of Martha Tabram who possess a photograph of her in life but won't let it be shared.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[Howard Brown]

And it ain't "Avon Calling !"

But some are more private about it, like the descendants of Martha Tabram who possess a photograph of her in life but won't let it be shared. -Tom

Heh heh...sounds like someone needs a knock on the door at 3 A.M. and a gentle "request" for that photograph, doesn't it ?

Where do they live ?

[caz]

Hi How,

" Three weeks ago, I was a patient in the London Hospital,in a private ward (Davis) with a Dr. Evans, suffering from Typhoid who used to be visited almost nightly by Dr. (Morgan) Davies when the murders were our usual subject of conversation..."

[D’Onston writing on December 26th 1888]

I’ve just been reading this thread and forgive me if this has been brought up elsewhere, but let’s imagine for a moment that D’Onston was telling the pure unvarnished truth here.

By my calculations (and please correct any errors or misunderstandings!), if D’Onston had left hospital by early December, ‘three weeks ago’ would refer to the very end of his stay there. So the almost nightly visits that Dr. Davies ‘used to’ make to his friend Dr. Evans, when the murders were the usual topic of conversation on the ward, would have covered the period immediately preceding D’Onston’s departure. But how far back would he be taking us here? Days or weeks? The wording I have underlined would certainly imply more than just a few days, which would take us perilously close to mid-November. You can just imagine the conversation on a certain date in November, assuming the nightly visits went back that far:

Dr. Davies: “How are you tonight, old sport? Any improvement?”

Dr. Evans: “Very seedy, I’m afraid, Davies. I can’t tell you how much your visits perk a man up. No, please don’t worry about the formalities. Believe you me, I’d be steering clear of shaking your hand if you had this confounded illness and I were the one visiting you, ha ha! Managed to read the newspaper today courtesy of Nurse Coppit standing at the door with her exceedingly long pole. Shocking business over in Dorset Street, what? Here, Stephenson, old boy! Tell Davies what you’ve been up to. I still can’t get over it. Fancy you being up for a night on the tiles in your condition. And of all the nights to pick… Little wonder you came back as white as your bedsheet and looking like sudden death warmed up. And fancy giving Matron the slip too. I must say I admire your pluck. She’d give me what for if she found me AWOL spreading me germs around. Chance would be a fine thing - at this rate I’ll be getting a new bedpan for Christmas and won’t be needing my slippers before the New Year - if I make it that far, ha ha.”

...and Melvin had the facts on his side as Donston actually said he was in Davis ward.

Hi Ally,

Yes, it’s perfectly fair for Melvin to have stated as a fact what D’Onston claimed. But anyone claiming to have solved the case is surely supposed to demonstrate whether their suspect’s claims are true or false before using any of them in the case against him. It’s risky enough relying on the word of the person you are accusing, but there’s also the danger of unconsciously picking and choosing what would need to be true and what would need to be a lie, in order to infer your suspect’s guilt. And it is always up to the theorist to prove guilt, whether we are talking about a cold-blooded murderer or a time-wasting hoaxer.

If D’Onston was telling the truth about his Davis ward recollections, it’s hard to reconcile this with a nocturnal adventure on November 9th to murder and mutilate Mary Kelly, followed by a safe return to his hospital bed without anyone noticing or questioning his absence.

If he was lying about all or part of it, it leaves open the possibility that he was firming up his ‘hospital patient’ alibi, by making such an adventure sound even more impossible. He could easily have learned about the security and nature of the various wards and pretended he was confined to one for infectious illnesses, so that nobody would imagine him leaving or entering at will. He could also have learned about the frequent visits by Dr. Davies to a patient there. As has been mentioned, the patients in such a ward would be less inclined to go walkabout. And there’s equally nothing like a sign saying ‘Nasty Infectious Diseases Unit - Bubonic Plague a Distinct Possibility’ to deter all and sundry from wandering in. So physical barriers like locked doors and security guards need not be the major issue here, and Currie Ward may well have required more than Davis to prevent unauthorised comings and goings.

But at the time of writing, just a few weeks after the events described, it would have been the easiest thing in the world for such details to be checked and any lies to be uncovered. So the ward would hardly have been worth lying about unless it made an appreciable difference to D’Onston’s opportunity to have gone out on the prowl - eg the difference between being able to come and go as he pleased in, say, Currie Ward, and being watched like a hawk in Davis. But it would make no sense to place himself in a ward that was no harder to leave or enter than the one he was actually in. So if Currie was the more secure of the two, why would he lie about being in Davis?

I tend to think the man would not tell a straight story if he could tell a fancily shaped one. I wonder if he was a hypochondriac who just liked to boast about being in a private ward for patients with interesting diseases, having important conversations with real doctors about real murderers. Ripping Yarns anyone?

Love,

Caz
X

[Mike Covell]

Hiya guys,

" Three weeks ago, I was a patient in the London Hospital,in a private ward (Davis) with a Dr. Evans, suffering from Typhoid who used to be visited almost nightly by Dr. (Morgan) Davies when the murders were our usual subject of conversation..."

If Dr. Morgan Davies visited Dr. Evans "almost nightly" and Robert D'onston Stephenson knew of these visits, which occurred "almost nightly"

When did he have time to slip out?

And surely Dr. Morgan Davies, on his "almost nightly" visits would say to his old friend Dr. Evans, "Hey where's Mr. Stephenson this evening?? T'is strange he vanishes whenever there is a murder....anyway, how are you old boy?"

Great to see the new program Casualty 1907 based at the Hospital, I missed the show but caught a link to it on BBCi, I loved the bit where they locked the gates of the Hospital at night.....

[caz]

Hi Mike,

Melvin was lucky. Imagine if he had to have D'Onston faking it if he was like the poor bloke in Casualty 1907 and had both legs amputated below the knee!!

I suppose he could have theorised that D'Onston sold his slippers to the ripper instead.

Love,

Caz
X

[Tom_Wescott]

Heh heh...sounds like someone needs a knock on the door at 3 A.M. and a gentle "request" for that photograph, doesn't it ?

Where do they live ?

Ha ha, I just saw this. Funny thing is this is exactly what I said when I heard about the photo. Seems the Whitechapel Society people know the Tabram descendants, but you know how Brits are, they probably asked politely one time, got a polite 'no', and let it drop. Perhaps a little American innovation could do the trick?

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott