Sickert Was Ripper

[Dan Norder]

Hey Billy E.,

How the special effects make up in the play were done was a closely guarded secret, and, while people have theories, I don't know that anyone knows for sure. It could be as you say.

I don't disagree that a lot of books have claimed that the play was shut down out of fears that it was influencing the crimes in some way, just that some recent research provided evidence that it was primarily a financial concern.

Jekyll and Hyde Dramatized by Martin A. Danahay and Alexander Chisholm is a 2004 book on this play and the Ripper links, including how the London play was losing money and was shut down (it also talks a little about the make up). Alan Sharp's "The Strange Case of Dr Jekyll and Saucy Jacky" (available on the Casebook for free) from the Sept. 2004 issue of Ripperologist also examined the financial situation.

Point taken on the fiction aspect.

Best wishes,

[BillyE]

I remember seeing a documentary which both orally, and visually demonstrated how Mansfield achieved his transformation, and they did say it was with flourescent make-up. They showed an actor using the make-up, in normal lighting, and he looked normal. When he stepped into the flourescent lighting it had a dramatic affect on his face. It was rather unsettleing, even by today's standards, and I can just imagine what it would have been like in 1888.

Every book I've read that mentions the Jeckle/Hyde play said the play, while it might have been losing money, was shut down at the request of the police, or just a decision made by the Lyceum management staff to keep from inspiring the Ripper. It was initially a smash, playing to packed houses, because people wanted to see the macabre transformation.

I'm not saying Sickert was responsible for Ripperology, just that he's partly responsible. Other than newspaper articles the only thing written about the Ripper was Marie Belloc Loundes' book "The Lodger" based on Sickert's veterinary student/lodger story he would tell at dinner parties. Ripperology would have to wait another 17 years for a "factually based" Ripper book: the barely factual "The Secret Identity of Jack the Ripper" by Leonard Matters.

That was all I was saying.

[Dan Norder]

He acheived this by using florescent make-up.

Possibly, but I don't think so. I think it was normal makeup, just either lit by lights mostly downward or mostly upward for the different effects.

but the lasting affect was the show was canceled so as to not inspire the Ripper to kill again

It was canceled because it was losing money.

Without him there's be no Ripper fiction, which was the lynchpin of true Ripper research.

And surely that couldn't mean what it looks like it says... Sickert did not invent Ripper fiction, and true research can dispense with the fiction entirely.

[Doctor X]

A Drive-By Troll apparently; however, it did yield a good explanation as to why Sickert is not a reasonable suspect.

Yours truly,

--J.D.

[BillyE]

There are several subjects running through this thread, so I'll try to tackle them in reverse order.

I would have said "Fistula Dollers" myself, but that's just me, and what do I know? ;-)

Richard Mansfield was famous for his on-stage transformation from Jeckel into Hyde. He acheived this by using florescent make-up. In normal light it wasn't visible. He'd thrash around, screaming in the normal light, and then step forward into the flurescent lighting, where the make-up would be visible, and ta-da, you have a hidious looking monster right before the audience's eyes. A policeman did interview Mansfield, but it was obvious he wasn't the killer, so the questioning didn't last long, but the lasting affect was the show was canceled so as to not inspire the Ripper to kill again, as if he needed such inspiriation.

Finally about Walter Sickert, and Patricia Cornwell's book naming him as the Ripper. There is no doubt Sickert made Jack the Ripper a part of his own personal mythology. It's partly because of him we remember the Ripper. Without him there's be no Ripper fiction, which was the lynchpin of true Ripper research. But none of that makes him the Ripper. Just obsessed with the Ripper. Does this obsession come from the knowlege of who the real killer is, or might be, or knowing one, or more of the victims? Who knows.

With every new book claiming to have solved the case comes out they almost always make a compelling case for their suspects. In almost every case when I'd read a new suspect book I thought "Maybe it's finally been solved" only to have some monkey wrench thrown into the works.
I was convinced when I read the "Final Solution" and was convinced with I tore through the pages of the "Diary" thinking it finally was over. Of course it wasn't. Only three books claiming to have solved the case have met with complete and utter skeptisism with me. Those are "Prince Jack" by Frank Spiering, "Murder & Madness : The Secret Life of Jack the Ripper" by David Abrahamsen, and finally "Portrait of a Killer: Jack the Ripper Case Closed" by Patricia Cornwell. From the first page I found myself saying "I can't believe I'm reading this crap". In the end I just didn't believe she proved anything, and proclaimed herself the ruler of truth. It's caused me not to want to read even her fiction. Anyway, even though I don't believe any of the Sickert stories about Jack the Ripper, I have to say the two Ripper yarns involving Sickert are probably my favorite Ripper stories. They're so much fun!

[Graham]

I remember my dad talking about War of the Worlds and Orson Wells.
Daddy said they had the radio on, and they listened to it for a little bit,when grandpa said "Turn it to something else,I don't care to listen to that nonsense." Don't recall daddy saying anything about a great panic in Milwaukee over it.The vast majority of people there knew it was just a radio show,and you are right,i think over time the thing got blown waaay out of poportion .

Hiya HD

I don't honestly think you can compare the Mansfield 'incident' with the 'War Of The Worlds' broadcast. Welles almost certainly knew what the reaction amongst certain folk would be, whereas Mansfield acted in all innocence, pardon the pun.

Back in the 1950's a BBC TV programme broadcast on April 1st purported to show 'the spaghetti harvest' in Italy, with shots of farm-workers clipping great hanging wodges of spaghetti off trees. As the average Brit in those days hadn't got a clue what spaghetti was, let alone ever having eaten it, a large chunk of the population believed what they say.

People believe what they want to believe, simple as that.

Back in 1888 the stage was just beginning to get to grips with more sophisticated effects, lighting, props and so forth. And to the average Victorian I should think that Mansfield's portrayal of Dr J and Mr H was indeed scary.

Cheers,

Graham

[HollyDolly]

Sickert was Ripper

I remember my dad talking about War of the Worlds and Orson Wells.
Daddy said they had the radio on, and they listened to it for a little bit,when grandpa said "Turn it to something else,I don't care to listen to that nonsense." Don't recall daddy saying anything about a great panic in Milwaukee over it.The vast majority of people there knew it was just a radio show,and you are right,i think over time the thing got blown waaay out of poportion .

[Graham]

Graham,

I really wonder about that legend. It reminds me of the Orson Wells radio broadcast that supposedly terrified people. The reality is that there were a few people out of thousands and thousands who had any traumatic feelings or actions because of the broadcast. It has been blown so far out of proportion to what the reality was. I wonder if the same exaggeration hasn't been applied here. What if it was one woman who screamed and that screaming surprised others, so they screamed too.


Mike

Hi Mike.

I do have a non-Ripper passing interest in Mansfield because he was a sometime member of the D'Oyly Carte Opera Company (of Gilbert & Sullivan fame) in which I have a very great interest. He also performed Shakspeare, Ibsen, and so forth, and was well-known on the Londo stage.

Re: Dr J and Mr H, all I can tell you is that the 'transformation scene' was so scarily realistic (by Victorian standards, remember) that it really did disturb people. The Ripper connection comes from some unknown (or forgotten) man who witnessed the play and wrote to The Times that anyone capable of doing what Mansfield did is capable of either murder in his own right or inspiring others to murder. As far as I'm aware that was the end of it. The suspicion that Mansfield might have been the Ripper was neither official nor, as far as I know, even contemporary, and would appear to stem from the TV production referred to by Mike Covell.

Cheers,

Graham

[The Good Michael]

Graham,

I really wonder about that legend. It reminds me of the Orson Wells radio broadcast that supposedly terrified people. The reality is that there were a few people out of thousands and thousands who had any traumatic feelings or actions because of the broadcast. It has been blown so far out of proportion to what the reality was. I wonder if the same exaggeration hasn't been applied here. What if it was one woman who screamed and that screaming surprised others, so they screamed too.


Mike

[Graham]

Richard Mansfield was an American actor-manager who at the time of the Ripper crimes was running a production of Dr Jekyll and Mr Hyde at the Lyceum. Apparently his transformation from Jekyll to Hyde was so effective and disturbing that women in the audience fainted, dogs barked, etc. He was accused by person or persons unknown that his portrayal actually encouraged serial murder and he was forced to take the show off because of dwindling sales.

All of the above is in the A-Z.

I have never seen any credible support for any suggestion or accusation that Mansfield was himself the Ripper. I believe that he ended up a bankrupt and either returned to America or just disappeared into obscurity.

Cheers,

Graham

.

Cheers,

Graham

[Mike Covell]

I can't find it in my mass of newspaper reports, it was late 1888, but the authorities threw it out because the guy had never left Germany!!

I also have a Death bed Ripper confession from 1891, but again it sounds a little dubious.

I will attempt to dig them out and post them on a newspaper thread, (I will PM you with the link)

[JSchmidt]

German Ripper in 1888? Either I'm not catching a certain irony or if you have some more details I could look up some more infos in German sources if you want.
(I am German btw.)

[Mike Covell]

Hi HollyDolly,

I have a couple of news reports from 1888 stating a German Jack the Ripper is at large, there were several follow up reports from people claiming to be the German Jack!

My father had a "Top Secret" clearance for work he did at Ministry of Defence Sites. He doesn't talk about it, and I don't push him.

[HollyDolly]

Sickert was Ripper

Thanks for the welcome all.Yes,that was it,Michael Caine played I believe
Detective Abberline,and that's the show I was thinking of.
As far as where my dad got any info on similar crimes happending in France or elsewhere,i have no idea.Whether he read this years ago in some book or not i cannot say.He mentioned a case in Germany where a guy killed people and sold the bodies as meat to unsuspecting buyers ,and several other cases.
My late father's family came from Germany to the US in 1882 ,and they used to write to relatives,so maybe that's he found out about those crime cases.
As far as the Ripper case and similar crimes elsewhere,that I don't know,and didn't think to ask. He could have read about it in some obscure book or old papers maybe at the Milwaukee Public Library back in the 1930s and 40s.
He worked in military intelligence from 1942 to 1975,when he retired from the US AirForce.Shortly before he passed away I learned he had been in Yugoslavia during the war,when he was recruited to spy on Tito's partisans.
I know in the late 1950s he did a tour of duty or TDY as they call it to Germany and England for Security Service. Don't know what he was doing in England or where he went,except to visit Windsor Castle and the Tower of London and such on free moments.Don't think he or don't recall him visiting Scotland Yard's Black Museum,and any dealings with the british Government would have been in relations to US interests.
Wish I had a time machine where I could go back and ask him about his information on this subject.

[Celesta]

Hi HollyDolly,

It would be interesting to know where your dad heard about the murders in France, wouldn't it? There was some suspicion attached to Mansfield, and Mike is right, he figures in the movie with Michael Caine. He was played by Armand Assante. I agree that Sickert fistula (full of samolians) would not have been the likely cause for his being a serial killer. I think Cornwell was stretching, looking for a defect, as she claimed that serial killers usually have one of some sort.

Best Regards, and welcome to the Casebook,

Celesta