Sickert Was Ripper

[Celesta]

Actually she's mounted a great defense. She's hired bodyguards to protect her from all the crazed Ripperologists who are out to kill her.

oh and lately she's apparently paying gobs of money for a Ripperologist researcher to "prove" Sickert was the Ripper.

Oh? Who? I mean, who, after all this time and all that's been said about her book, would jump in and do this? Why not just roll naked across cactus covered carpet?

[Mike Covell]

The problem with being on the payroll is that you are not going to look at things with caution.

We all know how easy it is to become convinced of someones guilt, and being payed to do so is only going to make this person try and please the boss!!

Right i am off to soak in our new hottub, whilst i have my servant feed me strawberries, cream and champagne......

[JSchmidt]

What I found the most blatantly absurd "proof" is the whole business with the fistula.
Most of it is based on hearsay (relatives reporting the kind of deformity instead of medical files or notes). And the whole text about the possible psychological issues that may have resulted from the treatment is speculation. There seem to be no medical records from the operation in London and she seems to have failed in her research regarding notes and records from his two previous operations in Germany.
Such experiences tend to traumatize people, they do not turn them into vengeful sociopaths.
It is almost hilariously funny how she tries to suggest (not proof) that the elderly nurse MAY have been part of the horrible surgical experience Walter had.
To quote the book and to show the meekness of argumentation: "Sickert might have blamed his boyhood agonies, his humiliations, and his maimed masculinity on a genetic defect or "blood poison" that he inherited from his immoral dance-hall grandmother and his illegitimate mother."
And nowhere near any proof.

[Mike Covell]

I also laughed at the whole "Fistula full of dollars" episode.
Men can lead a normal life with a fistula, they can have sexual intercourse and can have children.
all she "Proved" is that Sickert may or may not have written/touched/licked a "Ripper" letter, and seeing as there is no proof any of the letters are authentic, she has proved nothing!

[Celesta]

Hi Gang,

The fistula! Yes, I have often wondered about that fistula. There are different types of fistulas. Not all are in the male organ. There are anal fistulas, which are---I'm told---extremely painful. Maybe that's the reason his personality was, shall we say, a bit quirky?

As for the nurse issue, I have read a series about a nurse, who worked around the time Sickert was born. In that era, as the author presents them, the nurses were not as professional as they became after Florence Nightingale, Clara Barton, and other pioneers. I can easily see them as occasionally drunken and of, what, in those days, was considered to be of a low class. I can't say that is 100% certain, so don't take it as fact. It was the way they were presented by, the author. This is something to research.

I could see that the experience of having a fistula, or any kind of surgery for that matter, being a very traumatic experience for a child in that time period.

JSchmidt, I agree that trauma like this probably doesn't make a person a sociopath or a psychopath. You make some good points. Nice to meet you, by the way.

Mike, I loved "Fistula Full of Dollars!"

[Celesta]

Hello again,

There is another thing that bothers me about Sickert being JTR. I have the image of JTR as a psychopath...period. Would a psychopath have the discipline it requires to become such an accomplished artist? It takes more than talent to make an artist. A lot of discipline and, if you're the kind of artist I am, a lot of eyestrain, to become so accomplished. I've been reading Hare's & Babiak's book on psychos and, so far, I get the strong impression that psychopaths aren't very disciplined at much of anything but manipulating people. Am I on track here?

Cheers,

C

[JSchmidt]

As for the nurse issue, I have read a series about a nurse, who worked around the time Sickert was born. In that era, as the author presents them, the nurses were not as professional as they became after Florence Nightingale, Clara Barton, and other pioneers. I can easily see them as occasionally drunken and of, what, in those days, was considered to be of a low class. I can't say that is 100% certain, so don't take it as fact. It was the way they were presented by, the author. This is something to research.



JSchmidt, I agree that trauma like this probably doesn't make a person a sociopath or a psychopath. You make some good points. Nice to meet you, by the way.

I feel obliged to correct you a bit on your timeline for the tremendous change of the nursing profession which took place in the 19th century. Both Florence Nightingale and Clara Barton had achieved a measure of reforms by 1888, the pivotal points are the Crimean War of the 1850ies and the American Civil War of the 1860ies.
But you are correct that this change took quite a while and that nurses were not yet particularly wellregarded.
I really wonder what the mindset of a Late Victorian nurse was like. I suspect they would have to be quite practical and often harsh to fulfill their duties. Especially if the staff was really as small as Mrs. Cornwell suggests in her book.
But that tends to drift a bit offtopic.

To contradict Mrs. Cornwells thesis a bit more: If ridicule and gruesome medical examinations would make a killer out of a Victorian, then Joseph Merrick would have been an even more prolific killer than "our" Jack.

Nice to meet you too!

[Celesta]

I feel obliged to correct you a bit on your timeline for the tremendous change of the nursing profession which took place in the 19th century. Both Florence Nightingale and Clara Barton had achieved a measure of reforms by 1888, the pivotal points are the Crimean War of the 1850ies and the American Civil War of the 1860ies.
But you are correct that this change took quite a while and that nurses were not yet particularly wellregarded.
I really wonder what the mindset of a Late Victorian nurse was like. I suspect they would have to be quite practical and often harsh to fulfill their duties. Especially if the staff was really as small as Mrs. Cornwell suggests in her book.
But that tends to drift a bit offtopic.

To contradict Mrs. Cornwells thesis a bit more: If ridicule and gruesome medical examinations would make a killer out of a Victorian, then Joseph Merrick would have been an even more prolific killer than "our" Jack.

Nice to meet you too!

Yes, this is correct. The reforms in the nursing field began after the Crimean War. I was thinking of Sickert's having been born in the 1860's, at about the time things in the field were beginning to change, but weren't up to good standards yet. The thesis was that he had the surgeries on the fistula at an early age.

Thanks, JS.

[JSchmidt]

Yes, this is correct. The reforms in the nursing field began after the Crimean War. I was thinking of Sickert's having been born in the 1860's, at about the time things in the field were beginning to change, but weren't up to good standards yet. The thesis was that he had the surgeries on the fistula at an early age.

Thanks, JS.

D'oh, I have been a little bit dumb. Of course his surgeries must have taken place before 1888. Excuse my correction, now this was faulty logic applied if I ever saw it.

[Celesta]

D'oh, I have been a little bit dumb. Of course his surgeries must have taken place before 1888. Excuse my correction, now this was faulty logic applied if I ever saw it.

Oh, my goodness! Don't worry about things like that. I knew what you meant.


Have a nice weekend, JS.

C

[Magpie]

I notice that no-one's pointed out that Chapman and Kosminski were both hairdressers, and D'onston manufactured cosmetics.

btw, hair dyes in Victorian times were not like the temporary ones of today--once your hair was dyed it stayed dyed.

[Mike Covell]

I notice that no-one's pointed out that Chapman and Kosminski were both hairdressers, and D'onston manufactured cosmetics.

btw, hair dyes in Victorian times were not like the temporary ones of today--once your hair was dyed it stayed dyed.

"Why take 5 women into the shower, I just slash and go.....

[steje73]

'Why take 5 women into the shower?'
Why NOT take 5 women into the shower?

[Celesta]

I notice that no-one's pointed out that Chapman and Kosminski were both hairdressers, and D'onston manufactured cosmetics.

btw, hair dyes in Victorian times were not like the temporary ones of today--once your hair was dyed it stayed dyed.

Hi Mags, I bet this about the hair dye being permanent has squashed many a writer of Victorian mysteries plot layouts.

[plang]

Whew! I'm back from ATK. Now about this Sickert buisness.
First, denn034, you are correct in that Patricia Cornwell does offer a compelling theory, but it is not advisable to use any terminology that may suggest 'Case Closed'. As I mentioned before the ' Big Crash' , she has put forth the strongest argument I have yet to hear on JTR's identity. But that is all.
Mike, you coined Fistula Full of Dollars. Brilliant! With all due respect, I think 'Fistula of Dollars' works better. (said in a cowboy slang).
Jdombrowski89, I'll bet you the farm that Cornwell was not in france in 1888! Re: your post #12.
Should send a message to Vincent Bugliosi asking if he will consider reopening the case and writing another book. Can't think of anyone with better credibillity. Of course he is famous for 'Helter Skelter'. He also wrote 'Outrage',
pertaining to the O.J. Simpson case, mainly the incredible incompetance of the prosecuters. ( just for adventure, I drove up Cielo Drive and found the house of the 'Tate' murders', although the number address was not the same as in the book, but it was it with certainty, the driveway, the gate, and all.(1981)
Wonder whatever happened to Patricia Cornwells follow-up book to 'case closed' ? Know for sure I read there was to be one. Long overdue. Anyone

I posted this link on the former 'casebook'. Check it out.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QkJ8zd6tFNQ