Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

The Manchester Murders

Collapse
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • #46
    Originally posted by caz View Post
    Ah, but we know the real "Sir James" was taking arsenic in his various 'medicines' (and found a rich new source in early 1889) and also whacked his wife in front of a witness later that year. By the time he died, almost all the arsenic in his system had left it, most likely killing him in the process. A dose from Florie would need to have been a fairly hefty one to prove fatal, yet nothing of the kind showed up. The powers that be finally decided she had tried to kill him but the proof of her success was lacking.

    In any case, if she had wanted to leave him for another man she knew she could have got a divorce on the grounds of being knocked about (cruelty) so she had no need to resort to murder.

    Love,

    Caz
    X
    Hi Caz,

    Sorry I did not respond earlier. I was watching the ruckus on the "Tumblety threads".

    It depends on how much arsenic "Sir Jim" dosed with himself with. As you know one can actually build up a tolerance for the poison. The issue of whether he overdosed himself, or if Florence gave him too much (accidentally or intentionally), or if someone else did remains in the air.

    It's an interesting case on it's own merits. I have read and reread the old Trevor Christie book on Florence (of which I still have a copy). If any murder victim (or supposed murder victim) of that period had to be the subject of the issue of a "diary" by the Ripper, Maybrick would lead the list (I have an alternative 1889 "victim" but why bring up that party?).

    Jeff

    Comment


    • #47
      That's funny - when you search 1889 England Murder, the first thing that comes up is the Mayerling Incident!
      Originally posted by caz View Post
      He evidently wants to steer clear of Liverpool.
      He says: 'The whore is now with her maker...' 'There was no pleasure as I squeezed, I felt nothing.'
      And that's all we get, which leaves open the possibility of him picking up a prostitute in a seedy part of Manchester and merely throttling her into unconsciousness.
      He(/she?) gives us a little more. Next time, he'll throw acid on them. Does that mean he threw something else on this one? Maybe some arsenic tossed in her mouth. She could suffocate from the powder alone if it gets in the lungs.

      As well as steering clear of Liverpool, did he also want to steer clear of his brother Thomas in Manchester South (Didsbury and Withington) and go west to Farnsworth?

      "Cold and wet" and the the apparent lack of a newspaper report always indicated to me an indoor murder that might have looked like a natural death or was covered up by a landlord who disposed of the body.

      Comment


      • #48
        Originally posted by MayBea View Post
        That's funny - when you search 1889 England Murder, the first thing that comes up is the Mayerling Incident!
        Hi MayBea,

        It's surprising the Mayerling Incident should be the first thing on the 1889 England Murder search. It took place outside Vienna.

        No, if I was to consider a possible 1889 murder victim as a potential "Diary" based Ripper Suspect, it would be a Mr. Edward Rose. This unfortunate gentleman went on a vacation to Scotland in the early Summer of 1889, and while on the isle of Arran he was either pushed by a temporary companion he had met (or picked up, depending on your interpretation of the situation) named John Watson Laurie, or he fell, off a precipitous height and was killed. Laurie certainly robbed him, and hid from sight (badly) for two weeks, but was tracked down and returned to Scotland for a murder trial. Found guilty, his death sentence was reduced to life imprisonment (that evidence of actual killing was not totally proved). He died still in custody in 1930.

        There is no particular reason for me to single out Edward Rose, but he did like to travel (at least for nice ... if ultimately fatal vacations). He may have been the type to pick up men (though this is just debatable). Maybe he hated prostitutes or women? Anyway, he seemed just as worthy of consideration as James Maybrick.

        Jeff

        Comment


        • #49
          It's surprising the Mayerling Incident should be the first thing on the 1889 England Murder search. It took place outside Vienna.
          (At least, now I know Franz Ferdinand wasn't Franz Josef's son. That explains why my mother always said we were servants of Franz Josef but never mentioned Ferdinand.)

          I don't know if you would just look for someone who died and then used Rose.

          Any modern hoax theory should start with a serious Ripper enthusiast looking for a suspect based on several factors, like a good motive, and convenient death. Depending on your theory, it's not inconceivable that you would find Maybrick. I know I almost did back in the 80s, so it's possible.

          Comment


          • #50
            Originally posted by MayBea View Post
            He(/she?) gives us a little more. Next time, he'll throw acid on them. Does that mean he threw something else on this one? Maybe some arsenic tossed in her mouth. She could suffocate from the powder alone if it gets in the lungs.
            Was the author/killer inspired by the Lipski story? Angel was killed with nitric acid.

            Arsenic would leave red irritation on the tongue. No neck bruising need be evident with the 'squeezing', and arsenic poisoning would leave a contorted facial expression of pain as would strangulation.

            Comment


            • #51
              Originally posted by MayBea View Post
              Was the author/killer inspired by the Lipski story? Angel was killed with nitric acid.
              Possibly, MayBea, but I think it was more likely a reference to vitriol throwing as a recognised form of assault. While acid throwing attacks were relatively rare, they were more common, and more widely known about, in late 19th century Britain than they would be by the late 20th century.

              Love,

              Caz
              X
              Last edited by caz; 04-23-2015, 02:49 AM.
              "Comedy is simply a funny way of being serious." Peter Ustinov


              Comment


              • #52
                Originally posted by caz View Post
                Possibly, MayBea, but I think it was more likely a reference to vitriol throwing as a recognised form of assault. While acid throwing attacks were relatively rare, they were more common, and more widely known about, in late 19th century Britain than they would be by the late 20th century.

                Love,

                Caz
                X
                Examples from the literature of the time. Conan Doyle will use a vitriol attack on the handsome villain in his story 'The Adventure of the Illustrious Client" (published in 1921, but written in 1902). Stevenson ends one of his short South Sea novels, "The Ebb - Tide" (in a chapter entitled "David and Goliath" to give an idea of the similarity of vitriol throwing with using a slingshot) with one in the 1880s.

                Jeff
                Last edited by Mayerling; 04-23-2015, 04:58 AM.

                Comment


                • #53
                  Originally posted by MayBea View Post
                  (At least, now I know Franz Ferdinand wasn't Franz Josef's son. That explains why my mother always said we were servants of Franz Josef but never mentioned Ferdinand.)

                  I don't know if you would just look for someone who died and then used Rose.

                  Any modern hoax theory should start with a serious Ripper enthusiast looking for a suspect based on several factors, like a good motive, and convenient death. Depending on your theory, it's not inconceivable that you would find Maybrick. I know I almost did back in the 80s, so it's possible.
                  Hi MayBea,

                  Franz Ferdinand was Franz Josef's nephew. The tragic cause of World War I actually was disliked by the Emperor, as Franz Ferdinand was somewhat a social reformer - his wife Sophie (who dies with him at Sarajevo) was a commoner, who would be granted a title of Countess of Chotek, but was never allowed to enter a ballroom or dining room ahead of the actual Hapsburg Royal archduchesses, and whose marriage was considered legally morganatic - her children by Franz were commoners and could not inherit the throne. Franz Ferdinand, had he lived, would have worked to make the "Dual Monarchy" of the Austrian Empire and the Kingdom of Hungary a "Tri-Monarchy", by including a Slavik throne in Bohemia (something the Serbs were afraid of, which was why he was targeted). Oddly enough, although his assassination is the pretext for the decision to smash troublesome Serbia, the Hapsburg Court was relieved that Ferdinand was now out of the way.

                  Eventually, in 1916, when Franz Josef died, his grandnephew Karl becomes the last Hapsburg Emperor.

                  Actually, Maybrick (if one had to choose a candidate for a Diary hoax) was better than others as he certainly was known due to the notoriety and questions of Florence's trial and guilt. But I looked at the noted cases of 1889, and immediately after Maybrick (in the "Notable British Trial" Series of trial transcriptions) is "The Trial of John Watson Laurie (the "Arran Murder")". It was not too difficult for me to find a potential substitute on an academic question.

                  If we were to geographically broaden our search, I could have suggested Micheal Eyraud, the Frenchman who with his mistress partner Gabrielle Bompard, strangled the wealthy bailiff Gouffe in Paris and dumped his body in a Saratoga trunk in the countryside. Eyraud and Bompard's escape and recapture were front page news in 1889-90, as was the trial in Paris in 1890, which dealt with hypnotism and sexual enslavement.

                  Jeff

                  Comment


                  • #54
                    Doesn't this knowledge of vitriolic (sulphuric acid) attacks reduce the chance of a modern hoaxer, compared to Lipski and the nitric acid, commonly known to modern Ripperologists?

                    Originally posted by Mayerling View Post
                    It was not too difficult for me to find a potential substitute on an academic question.
                    That's if you want to put the forgery "before the horse". Old Hoax Theory posits an author already in the Maybrick circle, or in the know as far as Jim goes, so we already have Jim before the forgery.

                    With Modern Hoax Theory, he'd have to know how to fake the science. So you could start with the idea of a forgery. But realistically, you should start with someone from Liverpool who's interested in the Ripper who finds Maybrick first. Then decides to create a forgery.

                    To duplicate that, you'd have to find a candidate where you live in Britain or in a place you have a good working knowledge of.

                    Comment


                    • #55
                      There are two Betsy Culshaws, cotton spinners, in the area. But I think this one is our Betsy Culshaw/Dyson in the 1881 Census.

                      Betsy Culshaw
                      Age: 20
                      Estimated Birth Year: abt 1861
                      Relationship to Head: Daughter (Child)
                      Mother: Ellen Culshaw
                      Gender: Female
                      Where born: Bolton, Lancashire, England
                      Civil Parish: Great Bolton
                      County/Island: Lancashire
                      Country: England
                      Street address: 24 Thomas St
                      Occupation: Cotton Weaver
                      Registration district: Bolton
                      Sub registration district: Bolton Western
                      Piece: 3843
                      Folio: 23
                      Page Number: 40

                      Household Members:
                      Name Age
                      Ellen Culshaw 44
                      Betsy Culshaw 20
                      Thomas Culshaw 18
                      John Culshaw 15
                      Eliza E. Culshaw 13
                      Elizabeth A. Culshaw 9

                      Comment


                      • #56
                        Would a murder in Bolton be another change of mind, as in the second "Manchester Murder" in London, or was Bolton considered part of Manchester or Greater Manchester in 1888?

                        http://www.ica-ltd.org/about-ica/our-history/1830-1913/

                        The railways were key to the development of the Liverpool Cotton Market. It made travelling from Liverpool to the cotton heartlands of Lancashire, especially Manchester, quicker, cheaper, more comfortable and more reliable, especially in winter, when the canals could freeze. The journey between Liverpool and Manchester took four and a half hours by coach, but by rail it took just two; the cost of transporting cotton by canal to Manchester had been as much as 20 shillings per tonne; the railways charged 11 shillings. Furthermore, the transport of cotton was catered for by the railway companies, which provided heavy tarpaulins to cover the goods and built warehouses for the cotton at the end of the line. The journey for spinners going to see their brokers and vice versa fell by over 40%.

                        Comment


                        • #57
                          Was Bolton considered part of Manchester or Greater Manchester in 1888?

                          The answer appears to be a resounding yes.

                          http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greater_Manchester

                          Places such as Bury, Oldham and Bolton played a central economic role nationally, and by the end of the 19th century had become some of the most important and productive cotton-producing towns in the world.[17] However, it was Manchester that was the most populous settlement, a major city, the world's largest marketplace for cotton goods,[18][19] and the natural centre of its region.[20] By 1835 "Manchester was without challenge the first and greatest industrial city in the world";[19] and by 1848 urban sprawl had fused the city to its surrounding towns and hinterland to form a single continuous conurbation.[16]
                          The suspicious Bolton death cannot therefore be ruled out without unproven assumptions.

                          Comment


                          • #58
                            Betsy Dyson died on February 12.

                            The Last Victim book says Maybrick took the lease in Battlecrease in February 1st.

                            Doesn’t that mean he signed the lease in the 1st? That doesn’t leave much time to move in and then go to Manchester or Bolton to commit murder.

                            Comment


                            • #59
                              Here's Betsy Dyson's Death Certificate. Date of death is wrong. She died February 12th.

                              Click image for larger version  Name:	betsydeath2.jpg Views:	0 Size:	124.4 KB ID:	727429

                              Comment


                              • #60
                                The Manchester murders are a strange detail but I assume the hoaxer wanted to account for the lack of kills closer to home and bookend the Whitechapel series. It was a long time ago, records are lost, crimes are unreported, they could use the "evidence of absence" argument to cover themselves.

                                Comment

                                Working...
                                X