The Diary — Old Hoax or New or Not a Hoax at All?​

[Iconoclast]

I would also include a disclaimer that a vote for seeing the initials does not necessarily indicate a vote for the authenticity of the diary.

c.d.

Good point.

[caz]

Why would Mary be the only victim to be the recipient of the initials as mentioned in the diary? Weren't they all substitutes for the hatred he had for Florence? Why don't we see initials in the other murders? What would have been special about Mary in this regard?

c.d.

Doesn't 'Sir Jim' [or Anne Barrett if you prefer] write something about Kelly reminding him of Florie - 'the whore'? Possibly because she was younger than the others?

The diary author could have gone further and given this as a reason for really going to town on this one.

Love,

Caz
X

[Iconoclast]

I am wondering if someone could put together a best evidence photograph supposedly showing the initials with an accompanying poll. Choices could include: yes, mostly definitely see them; sort of looks like initials; could be but it is a stretch; no, don't see anything at all etc.

I would be interested to see what people think.

c.d.

Afterwards, we should have another poll:

"Do you think it is even vaguely plausible (not just possible) that a potential hoaxer was the only person who ever saw those shapes as 'F' and 'M' and therefore used them in a hoaxed scrapbook which was focused upon James Maybrick, about as implausible a candidate for Jack as it's possible to get, having backward-engineered the 'FM' to Florence Maybrick and thus to James Maybrick who conveniently cannot be excluded by the known evidence?"

Yes
No
Oh shut up about those pesky initials, Ike

[rjpalmer]

Unfortunately for you, but more so for the 'old hoax' theorists, he took this as evidence the diary was created after 1972 when Farson's book was published (I think the first edition actually dates to 1971).

Small correction after referring to my copy.

Gareth is correct. Farson's book was first published in 1972. The second edition was 1973.

Why Ike keeps referring to 1973 is beyond my poor powers of analysis, since the same photograph was available a year earlier.

[Iconoclast]

For the forger, however, who could make up any narrative they wanted in the diary, it made perfect sense to scan everything.

Are we still talking about the same document which has been routinely dismissed as a 'shoddy' hoax created by some spotty teenager one wet weekend in Liverpool?

So, we can agree that - in your version - the scrapbook is far from a 'shoddy' piece of work, Herlock?

That, I have to say, is at least progress towards my long-held conviction.

Cheers,

Ike

[Iconoclast]

Doesn't 'Sir Jim' [or Anne Barrett if you prefer] write something about Kelly reminding him of Florie - 'the whore'? Possibly because she was younger than the others?

The diary author could have gone further and given this as a reason for really going to town on this one.

Love,

Caz
X

Caz,

You are talking about the hoaxing genius who did that trick with the shapes that look like Florence Maybrick's initials and then barely mentioned them in his scrapbook.

I think he must have known exactly what he was doing, don't you?

Cheers,

Ike

[c.d.]

Doesn't 'Sir Jim' [or Anne Barrett if you prefer] write something about Kelly reminding him of Florie - 'the whore'? Possibly because she was younger than the others?

Then what reason does he give for killing the others?

c.d.

[Iconoclast]

Why Ike keeps referring to 1973 is beyond my poor powers of analysis, since the same photograph was available a year earlier.

Because that's the only version I've got, for ****'s sake! Do you think we at Iconoclast Manor are minted or something? (You really must try to think things through before you comment, RJ.)

For the pedants:

First published in Great Britain by Michael Joseph Ltd 1972
Copyright (c) Daniel Farson 1972
First Sphere books edition 1973

The person who first drew my attention to the photograph in Farson referred to it as the paperback version so I have always assumed that the 1972 version was the original hardback but - as I don't have it or need it - I never knew (and still don't for the record)

[Iconoclast]

Doesn't 'Sir Jim' [or Anne Barrett if you prefer] write something about Kelly reminding him of Florie - 'the whore'? Possibly because she was younger than the others?

Then what reason does he give for killing the others?

c.d.

He was down on sex workers, apparently. He said it in a letter.

[rjpalmer]

Caz,

You are talking about the hoaxing genius who did that trick with the shapes that look like Florence Maybrick's initials and then barely mentioned them in his scrapbook.

I think he must have known exactly what he was doing, don't you?

Cheers,

Ike

I'm always surprised, Ike, that you are so utterly unfamiliar with the archives that you feel the need to ask such questions.

Personally, I know exactly what Caz's former views have been on 'FM' but it's not my place to say. Good luck.

[Herlock Sholmes]

Are we still talking about the same document which has been routinely dismissed as a 'shoddy' hoax created by some spotty teenager one wet weekend in Liverpool?

So, we can agree that - in your version - the scrapbook is far from a 'shoddy' piece of work, Herlock?

That, I have to say, is at least progress towards my long-held conviction.

Cheers,

Ike

I'm struggling to understand why the fact that the forger might have managed to discern some shapes of letters in the Kelly crime scene photograph transforms the diary from a shoddy hoax to a good one.

I also don't even know what is meant by a "shoddy hoax". If it means that it includes expressions which didn't exist in 1888 then, yes, one could say it is shoddy.

[Herlock Sholmes]

Afterwards, we should have another poll:

"Do you think it is even vaguely plausible (not just possible) that a potential hoaxer was the only person who ever saw those shapes as 'F' and 'M' and therefore used them in a hoaxed scrapbook which was focused upon James Maybrick, about as implausible a candidate for Jack as it's possible to get, having backward-engineered the 'FM' to Florence Maybrick and thus to James Maybrick who conveniently cannot be excluded by the known evidence?"

Yes
No
Oh shut up about those pesky initials, Ike

Ike, I think if you're going to ask a poll question which asks if the hoaxer would have been "the only person who ever saw those shapes as "F" and "M"" you need to make very clear what shapes you are talking about. Is it the supposed "F" on the arm or the supposed "F" on the wall?

I believe I gave a good explanation as to why there is nothing surprising about a forger being the first person to see shapes in the photograph. And in the pre-internet age, how many people who could properly be described as Ripperologists were even active in 1992? Less than a hundred? I would think that anyone with any sense would have discarded the idea that letters on Kelly's wall could be relevant to the crime and assumed were probably there before the murder. And they would surely also have assumed the police would have seen them if they were there. Truly, there are so many reasons why no-one would have bothered to scrutinise a dirty wooden wall. Simon Wood had the idea that Kelly might have written her killer's name in blood but that that's the only reason he even bothered to look at it. Who else, in reality, would have done so?

[Iconoclast]

"Do you see the circled shapes on Mary Kelly's wall which - it has been suggested - resemble an 'F' and and 'M' in this photograph?"
Yes, I know exactly which shapes are being referred to and they do resemble 'FM' in my opinion (granted, the 'F' is fainter than the 'M')
Yes, I know exactly which shapes are being referred to but they do not resemble 'FM' in my opinion
No, I cannot see the shapes at all

Now all we need is a circler and a pollster. Don't all shout at once.

[erobitha]

I would also include a disclaimer that a vote for seeing the initials does not necessarily indicate a vote for the authenticity of the diary.

c.d.

Heaven forbid.

[rjpalmer]

Now all we need is a circler and a pollster. Don't all shout at once.

Hi Ike.

I don't like opinion polls and never respond to them, but I'm killing time waiting for someone to get out of the hospital, so I put one together just to see how it is done.

Any poll has to go through the administrator, though, so it will only show up if it isn't considered a colossal waste of time. Ciao.