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  • G'Day MayBea

    But hasn't it been established that the empty tin was in the paper:

    Originally Posted by Frank View Post
    If the police held back the tin match box, empty, why did the Echo of 4 October mention it:

    THE MURDER DISCOVERED

    Inspector Edward Collard, of the City of London Police, was next examined. He said - At five minutes before two on Sunday last I received information at Bishopsgate Police-station that a woman had been murdered in Mitre-square. After dispatching the intelligence to headquarters and to Dr. Gordon Brown, I proceeded to the Square. I there found Dr. Sequeira, several police officers and a body of a woman lying in the north-west corner of the Square. The body was not touched until the arrival of Dr. Gordon Brown. He, however, arrived shortly after I got there. The medical gentleman examined the body, and Sergeant Jones afterwards picked up , on the left side of the deceased three small black boot buttons, a small metal button, a metal thimble and a small mustard tin containing two pawn-tickets. The body was afterwards removed to the mortuary. There was no money in her pockets. There was some tea and sugar, a piece of flannel, some soap, a cigarette case, and an empty match-box in her pocket. The portion of an apron (produced) was what deceased was wearing, and corresponds with the piece of apron which has been found in Goulston-street. Chief Detective McWilliams arrived at Mitre-square soon after the murder was discovered. He was accompanied by a number of detectives, and they made inquiries at the various lodging-houses in Spitalfields, and several men were stopped and searched in the street, but without any satisfactory result. I have a house-to-house inquiry made in the vicinity of Mitre-square (continued witness) to see if we could find any person who heard or saw anything unusual in the square that night.

    You go on to say

    "Diary supporters are suggesting that Jack planted the red leather cigarette case, not the matchbox. Unless you're talking about the matchbox with the cotton... They/we are suggesting the cotton was also planted."

    But early in this thread the Tin was exactly what they where relying on to support the diary.

    I've always wondered about the leather cigarette case. She pawned the boots, but hang onto the case, go figure. It doesn't seem that the police placed a lot of weight on either as being likely to have been left by our dear friend Jacky, unless I've missed something. [Which is always possible or even probable]

    GUT
    G U T

    There are two ways to be fooled, one is to believe what isn't true, the other is to refuse to believe that which is true.

    Comment


    • Originally posted by GUT View Post
      G'Day MayBea

      But hasn't it been established that the empty tin was in the paper:
      ....But early in this thread the Tin was exactly what they where relying on to support the diary....
      I only read empty matchbox. Not empty tin.

      Tin would have to be a guess if it's not found anywhere pre-1988 and you believe in and old hoax. It might be a good guess maybe based on the cotton but it's still a guess.

      It doesn't really support the Diary except against the Old Hoax theorists, and even the Modern Hoax theorists disagree with them. And empty tin would still be one of their strong points.

      Comment


      • G'Day MayBea

        Sorry my Bad.

        But that was why I asked earlier were all matchboxes (as we now call them) tin in 88.

        GUT
        G U T

        There are two ways to be fooled, one is to believe what isn't true, the other is to refuse to believe that which is true.

        Comment


        • Hi GUT

          But that was why I asked earlier were all matchboxes (as we now call them) tin in 88.
          In which case I probably misunderstood what you were asking

          Lots of matchboxes were similar to present day ones, manufactured of either very thin wood backed bt paper, or of pasteboard. They were manufactured largely by outworkers paid slave wages....vide Striking a Light by Louise Raw

          All the best

          Dave

          Comment


          • G'Day Dave

            OK again my BAD

            GUT
            G U T

            There are two ways to be fooled, one is to believe what isn't true, the other is to refuse to believe that which is true.

            Comment


            • Originally posted by MayBea View Post
              According to this, Anne Graham was 'seemingly' the first and only one in her family to read it (likely not until the 80s when she reportedly took possession of it). Can anyone really say how one person should have reacted to it?


              Can anyone honestly say they'd be PROUD to be 'potentially' related to JTR?

              I for one would go out of my way to keep that little nugget a secret.

              The debunkers are happy to call anne, her dad .... feldman etc etc LIARS. I'm not so happy calling complete strangers liars on the back of no evidence that they are so...

              Comment


              • Hi Kaz,

                I used to work with a guy who claimed that a member of his family was hanged for murder in the 1920's I believe, and he seemed rather proud of this bit of gruesome family history, and was not at all reluctant to discuss it!

                Graham
                We are suffering from a plethora of surmise, conjecture and hypothesis. - Sherlock Holmes, The Adventure Of Silver Blaze

                Comment


                • Originally posted by Kaz View Post
                  Can anyone honestly say they'd be PROUD to be 'potentially' related to JTR?

                  I for one would go out of my way to keep that little nugget a secret.

                  The debunkers are happy to call anne, her dad .... feldman etc etc LIARS. I'm not so happy calling complete strangers liars on the back of no evidence that they are so...
                  Hi kaz,a simple positive d.n.a test from mrs Barrett would prove her story so why hasn't she done that?
                  Three things in life that don't stay hidden for to long ones the sun ones the moon and the other is the truth

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by pinkmoon View Post
                    Hi kaz,a simple positive d.n.a test from mrs Barrett would prove her story so why hasn't she done that?
                    A positive DNA test would still only be convincing evidence that the album or journal itself was in her family's possession. Would it prove the present content was there too and the Diary is therefore old?

                    P.S. Anne Graham would have been reacting to the possibility like her potential great grandmother. Florence Maybrick never mentioned it. Neither did Anne until she had to, and she would only be related to the Ripper through marriage and there aren't any cousins.

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by Graham View Post
                      Hi Kaz,

                      I used to work with a guy who claimed that a member of his family was hanged for murder in the 1920's I believe, and he seemed rather proud of this bit of gruesome family history, and was not at all reluctant to discuss it!

                      Graham

                      Not everyone is the same, clearly... thankfully.

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by pinkmoon View Post
                        Hi kaz,a simple positive d.n.a test from mrs Barrett would prove her story so why hasn't she done that?

                        I don't know, I've never met her to ask.

                        Why doesn't she want any of the money raised from the diary?

                        lots of questions and the problem is HOW to find the answers?

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by MayBea View Post
                          A positive DNA test would still only be convincing evidence that the album or journal itself was in her family's possession. Would it prove the present content was there too and the Diary is therefore old?

                          P.S. Anne Graham would have been reacting to the possibility like her potential great grandmother. Florence Maybrick never mentioned it. Neither did Anne until she had to, and she would only be related to the Ripper through marriage and there aren't any cousins.
                          Evening ,If mrs Barrett could prove she was a descendent of Mrs Maybrick then it would give the diary a much greater credibility .I have not got a problem with the diary itself I have got a problem with the lies told about how it appeared after all those years.I think Maybrick makes a very good suspect his drug addiction could explain the killers boldness but untill we can prove its history I will have to remain very sceptical.Having met Mr Barrett quite a few times over the years I came to the conclusion he is not capable of forging anything also nobody would get him involved in any sort of conspiracy or scam.
                          Three things in life that don't stay hidden for to long ones the sun ones the moon and the other is the truth

                          Comment


                          • Well, I've been reading up more about the diary and apparently the handwriting is not consistent with the handwriting on Maybrick's will.
                            So, Maybrick did NOT write it, according to the experts.
                            This means that it is definitely a forgery unless he had suddenly changed his handwriting, which is extremely unlikely, if not impossible.
                            Maybe Ms Graham is telling the truth that she had it for years, her father may well have passed it down to her.
                            Maybe he was the forger? Or his father before him?
                            As far as the tin matchbox goes it is possible that it had been mentioned in reports at the time, or it was just an educated guess on the part of the diarist. It's all been a money making scam, in my opinion,that did not turn out quite as they had hoped. Probably why the watch turned up a short time later....
                            What motive would the real JtR have had for keeping a diary? Hardly to make money for himself.
                            From what I've read convinces me that this is a fraud. It could have been written many years ago or as recent as 1988 or later.
                            The handwriting analysis has convinced me more than anything that this is the work of a fraudster.
                            Mr Barrett and his lies was a means to get the diary out into the public domain. He would have been aware of the diary if it had been in his wife's possession for years.
                            The only other alternative is that Mr Barrett had been given it, and seeing it's potential, his wife claimed ownership to make money out of it.
                            Whatever the truth is about the diary, genuine it is not...
                            Last edited by Amanda Sumner; 01-08-2014, 03:26 PM.

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by Amanda Sumner View Post
                              Well, I've been reading up more about the diary and apparently the handwriting is not consistent with the handwriting on Maybrick's will.
                              So, Maybrick did NOT write it, according to the experts.
                              This means that it is definitely a forgery unless he had suddenly changed his handwriting, which is extremely unlikely, if not impossible.

                              Is it not feasible he suffered from a multiple personality disorder? The will is suspect anyway, we simply don't have MUCH of james maybricks handwriting.

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by Amanda Sumner View Post
                                Well, I've been reading up more about the diary and apparently the handwriting is not consistent with the handwriting on Maybrick's will.
                                So, Maybrick did NOT write it, according to the experts.
                                This means that it is definitely a forgery unless he had suddenly changed his handwriting, which is extremely unlikely, if not impossible.
                                Maybe Ms Graham is telling the truth that she had it for years, her father may well have passed it down to her.
                                Maybe he was the forger? Or his father before him?
                                As far as the tin matchbox goes it is possible that it had been mentioned in reports at the time, or it was just an educated guess on the part of the diarist. It's all been a money making scam, in my opinion,that did not turn out quite as they had hoped. Probably why the watch turned up a short time later....
                                What motive would the real JtR have had for keeping a diary? Hardly to make money for himself.
                                From what I've read convinces me that this is a fraud. It could have been written many years ago or as recent as 1988 or later.
                                The handwriting analysis has convinced me more than anything that this is the work of a fraudster.
                                Mr Barrett and his lies was a means to get the diary out into the public domain. He would have been aware of the diary if it had been in his wife's possession for years.
                                The only other alternative is that Mr Barrett had been given it, and seeing it's potential, his wife claimed ownership to make money out of it.
                                Whatever the truth is about the diary, genuine it is not...
                                Hi Amanda my dear,could the lies be because the diary was stolen from someone for Mr Barrett to profit he would have to have ownership.
                                Three things in life that don't stay hidden for to long ones the sun ones the moon and the other is the truth

                                Comment

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