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The Diary—Old Hoax or New?

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  • Iconoclast
    replied
    Originally posted by Herlock Sholmes View Post
    Just in case anyone hadn’t seen it David has posted this article on his website.



    And no, I’m not David’s publicity agent
    So I have now had the pleasure of reviewing Lord Orsam's latest volley, and I'd like to say a few words (as he clearly still reads the Casebook, despite 'resigning' from it recently) on a few subjects.

    Firstly, I do not have unlimited time on my hands so I still haven't reviewed his various analyses - I will set aside time to do so in the near future and will incorporate any points he makes which I feel are significant into the brilliant Society's Pillar. Clearly, this will inevitably reduce some of the intensity of that brilliance, but that's his life's burden not mine. It is unfortunate that I have to carry it for him, but there you are. He has a big head, but fortunately for him I have a big heart and I am willing to accommodate his limited research into my magnus opium. Not a problem, but he will need to be patient. As his Numero One-o nemesis, I feel he will want to give me the time I need, although I do get dizzy moving my head left and right so often when reading his work so if he could widen his margins, that would be most helpful.

    Secondly, as my three fans will testify, for many years I have good-naturedly carried the flame for the Maybrick scrapbook. I've taken a lot of flak along the way, and borne the scars heroically. And that was before the good Lord Orsam appeared on the scene with his sack full of Mechanics for Beginners books! Ordinarily, I let the criticism roll off me (the transcendental meditation and the sherry help), but on this occasion, I feel compelled to challenge LO's comments regarding my reference to "off-instance". I haven't once intended my devoted readers to imagine that I actually imagine there ever to have been an expression "off-instance". I insert the hyphen purely to add stress in the right place. I probably should have typed "'off' instance" but that does feel more clumsy than "off-instance". That said, it has clearly confused His Lordship when I have done so so I feel the need to correct the situation. For clarity, then, I do not doubt for a moment that the obvious interpretation of "one off instance" is as we would know it today. Not an issue. Where it becomes an issue is where possible alternatives are wilfully excluded in order to further an argument. It is true (though I hadn't recalled it) that I do not mention this in Society's Pillar, and it is true that there is an element of tongue-in-cheek when I raise it (when is there not?, I hear you all chime), but - tongue-in-cheek aside - it is possible (however implausibly so you may feel that is) that James Maybrick wrote "a … one … 'off' … instance" in his private journal, to himself, not caring too much if it was particularly literate. There is no evidence that he used the term "one off instance" to Florrie. It is perfectly likely that he simply said "I promise it won't happen again" and then when writing about it wrote to the effect of "I told her that it would be a … [a what?] … one … [damn, what do I mean?] … [erm] … 'off' … instance". If the two words 'one' and 'off' were linked with a hyphen, then this possibility would be negated, but the author didn't so we are left with the possibility - however obscure - that it is simply a poorly-constructed sentence which Maybrick did not care to cross out and correct.

    Thirdly, the fact that 'one-off' was a mechanical term used at least as long ago as the early 20th century does not necessarily preclude the parallel use of the term to mean a single event (in the way we now know it). The two uses of the term may have had a common ancestor and their respective branches may not have had long to separate, but it is perfectly possible that there were two uses of the expression in 1888. So the fact that there are no mentions of 'one-off' in obscure trade journals before 1900 does not necessarily mean that it wasn't being used in its other context in everyday speech or in written documents and letters in 1888 or - for all we know - earlier than that. The obvious question is why has David Orsam not found the expression used in this context in his exhaustive review of 19th century published literature? Well, perhaps his review isn't entirely exhaustive. And perhaps the use of it was in written form and those documents and letters are now long destroyed. I don't know whether this is true or not, but I am not willing to accept that he has provided an incontrovertible fact which refutes the scrapbook until such time as we are more certain that the expression could not have been used in 1888 by a businessman who had spent long periods of time in America. The day may come when we have to accept that 'one off instance' simply could not have been written in 1888 by such a person, and when we reach that point (after we've discussed it for twenty minutes), we will all agree that Ol' Big Head was right all along.

    Ike
    Ironiclast
    Last edited by Iconoclast; 08-07-2019, 10:04 AM.

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  • Iconoclast
    replied
    Originally posted by harry View Post
    Now I have never claimed a mastery of the English language,nor did I argue that my use of' one off 'invalidated David's use.I never argued it with sam either,but the Ring Master doesn't mention that.In fact he expends a lot of words in proving nothing, except that there is one extra clown, himself. W elcome to the circus david

    (Best I could with the current crop of smileys)

    The Ring Master - I love it!



    Ike

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  • Iconoclast
    replied
    Originally posted by c.d. View Post
    Hey! I got mentioned by name in David's article. Well I'll be damned. Number 3 on the list I might add and in front of Caz. Take that Caz! I didn't think I was that important but the buttons are now flying off my inflated chest. My immediate response is to devote my life to reading countless obscure plumbing journals to prove David wrong. On second thought I'll just politely ask David to research the first usage of the expression "go pound sand up your ass."

    c.d.
    No. 3 - great work, c.d. - Caz will be fizzing to only come in 4th!

    Don't you love farce?
    My fault I fear
    I thought you'd want what I want
    Sorry, my dear!

    Ike

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  • harry
    replied
    Now I have never claimed a mastery of the English language,nor did I argue that my use of' one off 'invalidated David's use.I never argued it with sam either,but the Ring Master doesn't mention that.In fact he expends a lot of words in proving nothing, except that there is one extra clown, himself. W elcome to the circus david

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  • c.d.
    replied
    Hey! I got mentioned by name in David's article. Well I'll be damned. Number 3 on the list I might add and in front of Caz. Take that Caz! I didn't think I was that important but the buttons are now flying off my inflated chest. My immediate response is to devote my life to reading countless obscure plumbing journals to prove David wrong. On second thought I'll just politely ask David to research the first usage of the expression "go pound sand up your ass."

    c.d.

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  • Abby Normal
    replied
    Originally posted by Iconoclast View Post

    Hi Herlock,

    I've had a quick looksie and it's looking very bad for some us out there! I have not yet had the opportunity to read it all (we were all watching 'Temptation Island' in the Iconoclast household) but I'm sure I'll get the Kevlar on tomorrow and give it a full read.

    As I haven't read it, I don't know if he's responded to the most important issue of all yet - why his website uses about 23.65% of the visible screen?

    Cheers,

    Ike

    PS I preferred him when he told a few jokes ...
    too spare you 100% agony! ; )

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  • Iconoclast
    replied
    Originally posted by Herlock Sholmes View Post
    Just in case anyone hadn’t seen it David has posted this article on his website.



    And no, I’m not David’s publicity agent
    Hi Herlock,

    I've had a quick looksie and it's looking very bad for some us out there! I have not yet had the opportunity to read it all (we were all watching 'Temptation Island' in the Iconoclast household) but I'm sure I'll get the Kevlar on tomorrow and give it a full read.

    As I haven't read it, I don't know if he's responded to the most important issue of all yet - why his website uses about 23.65% of the visible screen?

    Cheers,

    Ike

    PS I preferred him when he told a few jokes ...
    Last edited by Iconoclast; 08-06-2019, 09:44 PM.

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  • Herlock Sholmes
    replied
    Just in case anyone hadn’t seen it David has posted this article on his website.



    And no, I’m not David’s publicity agent

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  • Sam Flynn
    replied
    Originally posted by Abby Normal View Post

    also David pointed out the odd use of the word "within" both by barrett and the diary writer.
    There's the use of "I seen" as well, although that's rather more common.

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  • Iconoclast
    replied
    Originally posted by Abby Normal View Post

    but im sure someone will tell us its because barrett picked it up after becoming obsessed with reading the diary (that he didn't hoax).
    Abby,

    Just an idea here. Rather than attempt to ridicule the possibility of it, how about you demonstrate how it could not be so?

    Cheers,

    Ike

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  • Abby Normal
    replied
    Originally posted by Herlock Sholmes View Post

    I’m rapidly approaching 54 and I’ve never once in my entire life heard anyone else use regards in this way Ike.
    hi HS
    also David pointed out the odd use of the word "within" both by barrett and the diary writer.

    but im sure someone will tell us its because barrett picked it up after becoming obsessed with reading the diary (that he didn't hoax).
    Last edited by Abby Normal; 08-06-2019, 02:37 PM.

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  • Iconoclast
    replied
    Originally posted by harry View Post
    I am not so much interested ,Ike,in what Barrett's statement proves, as I am in the supposed confession of Maybrick.You show categorically that Maybrick was the ripper,and I'll accept you are the clever person you say you are,and that arguments in favour of a hoax,are redundant.Till then I'll hold that my navel gazing remarks lead to a belief,that Barrett was a more clever person than you,and that he did,with others,fool a number of people
    There's no doubt at all - Mike Barrett was unequivocally The Cleverest Person Ever (if defined by how far from one's true baseline one's projected skills are cast).

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  • harry
    replied
    I am not so much interested ,Ike,in what Barrett's statement proves, as I am in the supposed confession of Maybrick.You show categorically that Maybrick was the ripper,and I'll accept you are the clever person you say you are,and that arguments in favour of a hoax,are redundant.Till then I'll hold that my navel gazing remarks lead to a belief,that Barrett was a more clever person than you,and that he did,with others,fool a number of people

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  • Iconoclast
    replied
    Originally posted by harry View Post
    Ike,
    The question was put because I do not know the answer as to when it was created,or why.Did the creation begin with the first entry into the book,or was it created in someone's mind beforehand. ... Or,was it a case of considering a diary as the means of incriminating a likely suspect,and then finding that suspect, and landing on Maybrick.
    What do you think Ike?What section do you class the above as belonging to,navel-gazing,or specifics.
    I didn't answer your last question, harry. I put this in the category of navel-gazing because debating whether the scrapbook was purchased before Maybrick was identified as a potential foil argues for a hoax but does not in any way advance the hoax argument. Like arguing whether Liz Stride's grapes were red before we establish categorically that she was actually a victim of Jack.

    I could expand upon this but it requires that I assume (possibly incorrectly) that you believe Mike's dramatic 1995 confession to provide the generalities (if not the specifics) of the truth. If this were the case, then we would be in a world where Mike had already written the contents of what became the scrapbook on his Amstrad word processor and obviously before his wife Anne did the transcribing into the newly-sourced scrapbook. This would all have been around two years before they did anything with it. This aligns with your namesake HarryD who - as a hardened acolyte and follower of Lord Orsam - has to believe that the transcribing of the 63 pages all occurred in eleven magical days in March and April 1992 (because he believes that Barrett 'phoned London with his masterplan before he had actually purchased the physical vehicle for it).

    All of these things are possible, but they are nevertheless also aspects of navel-gazing because they are focused on arguing for how the hoax could have been concocted without establishing in any way that it is actually a hoax. Personally, I will worry about whether Mike and Anne and Mr. Big could have done the deed after it is categorically shown that a hoax was perpetrated; though - in all honesty - if it's a hoax, I probably won't care so much whether it was created by Harry Dam in the late Victorian period, or HarryD's dad in the early 1990s.

    Ike


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  • Iconoclast
    replied
    Originally posted by StevenOwl View Post

    Hi Ike - I wasn't aware that news of the Diary had gone public before the watch first came to light. What sort of time frame are we looking at? Is there anything known about Robbie that would back up the suggestion that he forged the watch? And wasn't Albert offered a pretty decent sum for the watch? Surely Robbie would have made sure he took that money if he knew it was a hoax? And presumably Robbie somehow set-up the scenario at Albert's workplace where the scratches were first discovered - is it actually possible that he could have done that? Sorry, I don't expect you to answer all of those questions, I'm just thinking out loud. God, the Diary and watch really does my head in!
    Hi Steven,

    Sadly, it is a hall mark of this case that the watch came to light just weeks after the Liverpool Post ran the first headline revealing that a Maybrick-Ripper link was about to be published (actually, Harrison's opening salvo came out about six months later).

    There is probably everything about the apparently lovable scally Robbie to suggest that he could have had a hand in the watch. Where Albert was as solid, working bloke, Robbie was apparently less dedicated to work and had a more entrepreneurial spirit than Albert, so much so that he apparently sold a per centage of his share of the watch (which Albert had generously-foolishly given him) to an anonymous party and that it was partly because of this mystery party's reluctance to sell that the mooted deal with the American ultimately failed to transpire.

    You should take a look at your well-thumbed copy of Ripper Diary: The Inside Story by Seth Linder, Caroline Morris, and Keith Skinner (starting around page 40, but the Johnsons get about quite a bit in the book) if you want to know more. Actually, as it's one of my seminal Maybrick texts, I strongly recommend that everyone reads it at least a couple of times. I think I've probably read it about ten times. It is the Maybrick story from the inside and the out but without the unnecessary passion and personal investment of Harrison and Feldman so you may feel it is the most unbiased book on the scrapbook you'll find. Even more so than Society's Pillar possibly!

    Hope this helps.

    Cheers,

    Ike

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