The Diary

[Graham]

I think part of the 'problem', if any problem exists with regard to the discussion of the 'Diary', is that the two leading early investigators and writers about the case were very polarized - one totally for, the other utterly against the 'Diary' being written by James Maybrick. I refer of course to Paul Feldman and Melvyn Harris, neither of whom were shrinking violets or would listen to much at all that was in contradiction of their personal theories and opinions. I rather feel that this conflict of two strong personalities has carried over to the Forum over the years. Having said that, there's been some bloody good discussion and argument over the years!

Good posts by the way, Sir Bob!

Graham

[Livia]

Good questions, Raven. Maybe a bit off-thread, but they are questions that I don't think were ever, or will be, answered. In those days the only sentence for murder, assuming that the perp was sane, was death. It's odd that although Flo was reprieved, she was never pardoned or charged with a new crime such as manslaughter, so for what crime did she spend the next 15 years in prison?

I really must re-read my (few) books about the case, which I haven't done for a long time.

As an aside, does anyone know if "Etched In Arsenic" by Trevor Christie is still in print? I had a copy once, but it disappeared.

Graham

Unlikely she murdered him. Why go out and buy
flypapers when she had enough arsenic and probably
strychnine too in the house to poison a regiment?
Why did she not get rid of it all before JM died?
Why did she tell her brother in law and the family
doctor that her husband was in the habit of taking
strong medicine, if she planned to poison him?

She already had grounds for divorce (the beating in front of
servants, the doctor treating her blackened eye). In
fact, she had already consulted two solicitors (Markby
in London, Donnison in Liverpool) to obtain a legal
separation, before Hopper arranged the reconciliation.

It's more likely Maybrick died from lack of arsenic than
a deliberate dosing. He had to have known what the
result would be if he stopped taking it (he had discussed
the arsenic eating habits of Styrian peasants with
Valentine Blake earlier in the year), and a former mayor
of Liverpool, Sir James Poole had warned him that he'd
need to increase his dosage over time and if he tried
to stop, it would kill him, so an argument could be made
that he was a suicide or he'd deliberately set Florence
up to take the fall.

It appears from the judge's charge she was tried for
infidelity. But then he was suffering from the throes
of an "insidious" disease. Guess which one.

What I'd like to know is, who put the arsenic in solution
in the meat juice that was submitted for testing by
Michael Maybrick to Edward Davies? Florence admitted
to adding a powder to meat juice, but Maybrick was
never given anything from that bottle. Arsenic takes
weeks to dissolve in water, so how did the arsenic
in solution get into the meat juice?

"Etched in Arsenic" is available at both Amazon and
Abebooks.

Liv

[Graham]

Thanks for this, Liv. (I love your posts - they're set out like blank verse!).

Could a wife bring an action for divorce against her husband in 1889? Flo and Jim were a right pair, but it seems everything was stacked, fairly and unfairly, against poor Flo.

Yes, as I recall no arsenic was found in Maybrick at the post mortems. (I believe there were two, the second following exhumation - is this correct?).

I also recall a story that Justice Stephen at first seemed inclined to sum-up in Flo's favour, but overnight he markedly changed his tune. He was also thought to be going rapidly off his head at the time, as well, or so I recall.

Foul deeds at their moustache-twirling best!

Graham

[miakaal4]

Regarding posts around the diary being unworthy of serious discussion etc, okay, but how can we ever know the truth about the diary if we never discuss it seriously?
If he had a wife and kids living in the area he would be known as a local. He would not look out of place and not be regarded as a stranger. He may have known some of the prostitutes in the area, and even have studied the beats of the police. "I am very clever!"

[Tempus omnia revelat]

Thanks for this, Liv. (I love your posts - they're set out like blank verse!).

Could a wife bring an action for divorce against her husband in 1889? Flo and Jim were a right pair, but it seems everything was stacked, fairly and unfairly, against poor Flo.

Yes, as I recall no arsenic was found in Maybrick at the post mortems. (I believe there were two, the second following exhumation - is this correct?).

I also recall a story that Justice Stephen at first seemed inclined to sum-up in Flo's favour, but overnight he markedly changed his tune. He was also thought to be going rapidly off his head at the time, as well, or so I recall.

Foul deeds at their moustache-twirling best!

Graham

As I understand it, It is widely believed that Maybrick was killed using strychnine. The tests that were done at the time did not cover this eventuality. Whether or not it was caused by him self-administering the drug, or by 'foul deeds', is a matter for debate. There were certainly some 'dodgy pills' floating around at the time, I know that.

Kind regards,


Tempus

[Tempus omnia revelat]

Regarding posts around the diary being unworthy of serious discussion etc, okay, but how can we ever know the truth about the diary if we never discuss it seriously?
If he had a wife and kids living in the area he would be known as a local. He would not look out of place and not be regarded as a stranger. He may have known some of the prostitutes in the area, and even have studied the beats of the police. "I am very clever!"

I've given up arguing with people over the worthiness of debating a diary that no one has proved a fake and that might just have been written by the killer, miakaal4. If people can't see the reason why someone would want to investigate such a document, whilst they then go off and investigate suspects that have little or no evidence against them, then that's their problem. Just let them get on with it, I say.

Indeed he may have been known, miakaal4. Perhaps he even spun a story about being a doctor, which is why when PC Spicer arrested that suspect in heneage street - whose description matched Maybrick exactly - he was able to get away with it by saying he was a doctor. Who knows?


Kind regards,


Tempus

[miakaal4]

As I understand it, It is widely believed that Maybrick was killed using strychnine. The tests that were done at the time did not cover this eventuality. Whether or not it was caused by him self-administering the drug, or by 'foul deeds', is a matter for debate. There were certainly some 'dodgy pills' floating around at the time, I know that.

Kind regards,


Tempus

They found very little arsenic in him but did not check for anything else did they?

[Tempus omnia revelat]

They found very little arsenic in him but did not check for anything else did they?

As far as I am aware, miakall4, they did not. The accusation was based solely on the arsenic.

There was no reason what-so-ever for Florence to use flypapers to obtain arsenic when there was heaps of it around the house. Remember that Florence clearly knew of the existence of these large quantities of arsenic because - rather conveniently - at least one of her handkerchiefs was found in the same trunk as said poison.

You can't have it both ways. Either she knew about the poison, so why didn't she use it. Or she didn't, and so what a was her handkerchiefs doing in the same vicinity as them. I smell a bit of foul play.


Kind regards,


Tempus

[Livia]

Thanks for this, Liv. (I love your posts - they're set out like blank verse!).

Could a wife bring an action for divorce against her husband in 1889? Flo and Jim were a right pair, but it seems everything was stacked, fairly and unfairly, against poor Flo.

Yes, as I recall no arsenic was found in Maybrick at the post mortems. (I believe there were two, the second following exhumation - is this correct?).

I also recall a story that Justice Stephen at first seemed inclined to sum-up in Flo's favour, but overnight he markedly changed his tune. He was also thought to be going rapidly off his head at the time, as well, or so I recall.

Foul deeds at their moustache-twirling best!

Graham

Thanks Graham. Easier to proof.

Grounds were limited, but women could obtain
a divorce. There was the physical abuse in front
of the servants and according to her mother,
Florence knew of the mistress and her children
with James, some of whom were said to be born
after Florence married him. But most of the time,
it was easier just to legally separate (as in the
case of the Janion sisters, Martha Hughes and
Matilda Briggs), thus avoiding the social
repercussions of divorice.

There was arsenic found in Maybrick's organs
in minute quantity (1/3 grain, I believe), but
the means of determining the amount were
suspect at best. A small portion of liver was boiled
in hydrochloric acid and a strip of copper was
dipped in the solution. If a residue was found
on the copper, it indicated the presence of arsenic.
The analytical chemist who did the test (Edward
Davies) then took the weight of the sample
found the amount of arsenic it contained and
multiplied it by the weight of the entire liver to
come up with this figure, which assumes the
entire liver contained arsenic. Pretty shoddy
forensics. But what is puzzling is, Dr Humphrey
tested Maybrick's urine and feces on Thursday
after speaking to Michael Maybrick and his tests
were negative (although he tried to backtrack when
questioned by the defense stating that he had conducted
the test by memory, might not have boiled the
samples long enough, might not have used
enough, etc). See "Verdict in Dispute" at
archive.org.

There were no symptoms of strychnine poisoning
shown by Maybrick in his last days. Strychnine
causes cyanosis of the face, foaming at the mouth,
severe muscle spasms (arching of the back so that
the body rests on the heels and back of the head),
and finally asphyxia. And Florence was not tried
for administering strychnine, but arsenic only. In
any case, if they could have tested for strychnine,
they most likely would have found some in minute
quantities, since Maybrick was treated with
nux vomica which is derived from the seeds and
bark of Strychnos nux vomica, a tree or shrub
found in Asia, America and Africa.

Another really dodgy circumstance is Edwin
Maybrick claiming he found a box of pills in his
brother's washstand while preparing the house
for clearance. The pills contained arsenic and
quinine and were prescribed in Norfolk VA several
years previously. The house had already been
searched by Michael, Edwin, the servants,
the Janions and the police. And after finding
them, he held onto them for a few weeks before
finally turning them over to Addison (the
prosecution).

The story about Judge Stephen comes from
Charles Dickens' son's autobiography. Henry
Fielding Dickens was a barrister and KC. He says
that he heard from another judge who was on
the same circuit and rooming with Stephen at
the time of the Maybrick trial, that he was
awoken by Stephen in the middle of the night,
muttering, "The woman's guilty". Upon returning
to court the next day to continue his charge
to the jury, Stephen's demeanor had changed
to a position unfavorable to Florence. In
addition, he had to be corrected several times,
by both the prosecution and the defense on
matters of fact. If only Florence had followed
her instinct and insisted on a change of venue,
you have to wonder what the outcome would
have been.

Liv

[Casebook Wiki Editor]

There was no reason what-so-ever for Florence to use flypapers to obtain arsenic when there was heaps of it around the house.

Actually Flo did use an arsenic based cream for her complexion. Her mother found her prescription for it from a New York doctor after the trial was over. (And Flo was found with that prescription in her Bible when she passed after....Can't make this stuff up!)

And there can be no question that Flo wasn't the sharpest tack in the box. She may not have noticed the pharmacopeia in the house, or maybe it was known that it was verboten to touch Sir Jim's stash.

But the fly papers, which at first blush appear damning, have a legit explanation.

[Graham]

Thanks for your detailed reply, Liv. It's years really since I read anything about the Maybrick Case other than the spurious Ripper connection; must do so again.

Judge Stephen was of course also the father of J K Stephen, brilliant but slightly bonkers academic and another Ripper suspect.

Graham

[Tempus omnia revelat]

Actually Flo did use an arsenic based cream for her complexion. Her mother found her prescription for it from a New York doctor after the trial was over. (And Flo was found with that prescription in her Bible when she passed after....Can't make this stuff up!)

I was refering to her using the fly papers to kill him.

And there can be no question that Flo wasn't the sharpest tack in the box. She may not have noticed the pharmacopeia in the house, or maybe it was known that it was verboten to touch Sir Jim's stash.


So why did they find her handkerchiefs in the place that this 'larger stash' was kept in? She either left them there herself, or they were placed there by someone else. All rather fishy.

But the fly papers, which at first blush appear damning, have a legit explanation.

Kind regards,


Tempus

[caz]

Hi Tempus,

If, as I suspect, the real James was trying to set up his unfaithful wife, and planted her hankies among his stash of arsenic, I wonder if they were embroidered with her initials?

Could our diarist not have been thinking of something like this when having 'Sir Jim' refer to an initial here and an initial there, that would tell of the 'whoring mother'? The hanky was definitely something that would be found in his house after his untimely shuffling off.

Love,

Caz
X

[Casebook Wiki Editor]

So why did they find her handkerchiefs in the place that this 'larger stash' was kept in? She either left them there herself, or they were placed there by someone else. All rather fishy.

Tempus

It's pretty clear that Edwin and Michael were eager to see Flo hung. There are so many bizarre elements to their behavior leading up to Sir James' death as well as afterwards that scream "frame job".

[RavenDarkendale]

@ Sir Robert, Tempus, and Caz

Your posts taken together suggest a scenario.

1) We know that Maybrick was addicted to strychnine and arsenic.
2) We know Florence was using a complexion creme that contained arsenic.
3) The flypaper thing was not just made up, it happened.

Ergo:

What if Maybrick knew he was dying? He wanted revenge on the "whoring mother" very badly. What better way than to frame her for his own murder by planting the handkerchief, likely with her initials embroidered on it?