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  • #16
    Originally posted by Darryl Kenyon View Post
    Apart from his death, Maybrick isn't a good choice. But the author of the fake Diary needed someone local ,someone who died at the right time, and someone who was well known in Victorian times, [ so as to make his life easier to investigate, instead of Joe Bloggs from London ], to concoct the document. Pity he couldn't also find someone in his Twenties or Thirties who was known to have been in Whitechapel that Autumn. Might have been more believable
    This for me is numero uno point concerning the 'diary'. Why would a potential hoaxer of a Diary purportedly by Jack the Ripper actually choose someone over 200 miles away from the murder scenes?
    They quite simply would not.
    Which leaves, for me, the alternative probability.
    ‘There is nothing more deceptive than an obvious fact’ Sherlock Holmes

    Comment


    • #17
      Originally posted by Spider View Post
      This for me is numero uno point concerning the 'diary'. Why would a potential hoaxer of a Diary purportedly by Jack the Ripper actually choose someone over 200 miles away from the murder scenes?
      They quite simply would not.
      Which leaves, for me, the alternative probability.
      Good point Spider, old boy. It's been made from time to time before but not often enough. Why on earth did our erstwhile hoaxer home in on a Liverpool cotton merchant nearing his 50th birthday.

      "Who, oh who could I use as my foil?"

      [Thinks. Thinks some more. Struggles to think any more than that but eventually does.]

      "Wait a minute - it's been staring me in the f**king face!"

      And the rest is History vs Maybrick ...
      Iconoclast
      Soldier of Fortune, Man of Peace, Destroyer of Images, Nice Guy, Genius

      Comment


      • #18
        Originally posted by GUT View Post
        But there don’t seem to be many reports with him on guest lists at any time.
        I dont doubt it GUT. The only point that im making is that, if i was intending to forge a diary and knowing that it would come under heavy scrutiny, would i choose a well-to-do businessman who mixed in pretty high circles? Personally id choose some unknown butchers assistant from Stepney (or maybe even someone like Lechmere?) There must be higher chance of someone like Maybrick leaving some kind of trail which could disprove his presence at a crime scene than would a relative nobody. Of course this doesnt mean the diary isnt a forgery. Im only saying that Maybrick appears a risky subject but a hoaxer may have felt that the higher profile might have been a better ‘selling point’ and therefore worth the risk.
        Regards

        Herlock






        "There is nothing more deceptive than an obvious fact!"

        Comment


        • #19
          Originally posted by Spider View Post
          This for me is numero uno point concerning the 'diary'. Why would a potential hoaxer of a Diary purportedly by Jack the Ripper actually choose someone over 200 miles away from the murder scenes?
          He took a room in Middlesex Street, Whitechapel, as the diary helpfully explains early on.

          For "helpfully explains" read "conveniently explains", by the way.
          Kind regards, Sam Flynn

          "Suche Nullen" (Nietzsche, Götzendämmerung, 1888)

          Comment


          • #20
            Originally posted by Herlock Sholmes View Post
            I dont doubt it GUT. The only point that im making is that, if i was intending to forge a diary and knowing that it would come under heavy scrutiny, would i choose a well-to-do businessman who mixed in pretty high circles?
            Then again, Maybrick was a complete and utter nobody compared to some of the suspects suggested over the years and, after Stephen Knight got away with libelling the Royal Family (effectively what his book did) then I'd say that it was pretty much open season to take a pop at any suspect you liked, no matter how high-profile they were.
            Kind regards, Sam Flynn

            "Suche Nullen" (Nietzsche, Götzendämmerung, 1888)

            Comment


            • #21
              Originally posted by Sam Flynn View Post
              Then again, Maybrick was a complete and utter nobody compared to some of the suspects suggested over the years and, after Stephen Knight got away with libelling the Royal Family (effectively what his book did) then I'd say that it was pretty much open season to take a pop at any suspect you liked, no matter how high-profile they were.
              I dont disagree Gareth. Im just viewing it from a ‘what would i do?’ point. I would want a subject that was the least likely to be disproven by it being shown that he was elsewhere at the time of a murder. Obviously this hasnt occurred in Maybrick’s case but it might easily have done. That kind of occurence would have been far less likely for a working class man.
              Regards

              Herlock






              "There is nothing more deceptive than an obvious fact!"

              Comment


              • #22
                Originally posted by Sam Flynn View Post
                He took a room in Middlesex Street, Whitechapel, as the diary helpfully explains early on.

                For "helpfully explains" read "conveniently explains", by the way.
                Careful you don't try to have it both ways here, Sam. If the journal is a fake as you purport, then Maybrick lived 200 miles away in Liverpool and that was that. You cannot then dip into the pages of the journal you so malign and use its contents to help to explain why Maybrick was chosen.

                Cake and eat it nae, young man.
                Iconoclast
                Soldier of Fortune, Man of Peace, Destroyer of Images, Nice Guy, Genius

                Comment


                • #23
                  Originally posted by Sam Flynn View Post
                  Then again, Maybrick was a complete and utter nobody compared to some of the suspects suggested over the years...
                  Out of the mouths...

                  The diary of a nobody - which is what I thought of it back in 1998 and still do nearly twenty years later.

                  Has everyone got it the right way round?

                  Was the point of the diary to find someone who could fit the ripper's shoes and solve the Whitechapel Murders?

                  Or did it all stem from Maybrick himself, and the aftermath of the infamous trial of his missus for his murder by poisoning?

                  What to do about Jim? Wouldn't it be fitting to take this complete and utter nobody, and supposed victim of Mrs M, and make him the real villain of the piece. But how? Hmmm, let's think. Wasn't he a frequent visitor to the Capital, where his social climbing bore of a brother lived? He died just a few months after Jack the Ripper's most horrific murder.

                  That'll do nicely.

                  Love,

                  Caz
                  X
                  "Comedy is simply a funny way of being serious." Peter Ustinov


                  Comment


                  • #24
                    Originally posted by Iconoclast View Post
                    Careful you don't try to have it both ways here, Sam. If the journal is a fake as you purport, then Maybrick lived 200 miles away in Liverpool and that was that. You cannot then dip into the pages of the journal you so malign and use its contents to help to explain why Maybrick was chosen.

                    Cake and eat it nae, young man.
                    I'm not eating any cake, Ike. The diary promoted Maybrick as a Ripper suspect, so it's fair game to point out that it is also the source for this handy explanation (excuse) to bridge that 200 mile gap.
                    Kind regards, Sam Flynn

                    "Suche Nullen" (Nietzsche, Götzendämmerung, 1888)

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      Originally posted by caz View Post
                      What to do about Jim? Wouldn't it be fitting to take this complete and utter nobody, and supposed victim of Mrs M, and make him the real villain of the piece. But how? Hmmm, let's think. Wasn't he a frequent visitor to the Capital, where his social climbing bore of a brother lived?
                      If so, then why not mention these frequent fraternal visits, instead of conjuring up a rented room in Middlesex Street? And if he didn't fancy using Stephen's sofa as his operational base, were there no hotels? Step forward, SE Mibrac, your time has come...
                      Kind regards, Sam Flynn

                      "Suche Nullen" (Nietzsche, Götzendämmerung, 1888)

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        From time immemorial (or even immoral...) the image of the Ripper in the lay mind is that of a topper-wearing Victorian toff. Maybe this all originally stems from Leonard Matters' book in the 1920's/30's in which he proposed that the Ripper was a doctor avenging the death of his son. Maybe the image goes back before then. But whatever, the famous full-face photo of a satisfied-looking Maybrick is to all intents and purposes how, if you asked him to, the Common Man would describe the Ripper. Come the anniversaries of the Ripper Murders and shortly afterwards the Maybrick Case, what better reason for some enterprising forger, who perhaps had a bit of experience in the world of journalism, to link the two and produce, or assist in the production of, a purported Diary of Jack The Ripper. For what purpose? Well, £££'s, actually. What else?

                        And I still think that Melvin Harris was probably closer to the truth than anyone these days gives him much credit for. But that's just my opinion.

                        Graham
                        We are suffering from a plethora of surmise, conjecture and hypothesis. - Sherlock Holmes, The Adventure Of Silver Blaze

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          Originally posted by Sam Flynn View Post
                          If so, then why not mention these frequent fraternal visits, instead of conjuring up a rented room in Middlesex Street? And if he didn't fancy using Stephen's sofa as his operational base, were there no hotels? Step forward, SE Mibrac, your time has come...
                          Well Sam - as I'm sure you know - he does mention the fraternal visits to London (and Manchester, of course). And he mentions the room in Middlesex Street which - as you imply - is essentially superfluous given that his London link has already been established. Which implies that our hoaxer made up the Middlesex Street link to make Maybrick's case stronger somehow ("What a shame that Michael lives so hopelessly far from Whitechapel. No-one would believe that Maybrick would travel a few miles to commit his devilish deeds. I know, I'll move his locus right into Whitechapel - that'll convince them.").

                          Or ... or the author of the journal was James Maybrick and he was just writing what was true without any plan to beguile the Ripper-reading masses of the late 20th century.
                          Iconoclast
                          Soldier of Fortune, Man of Peace, Destroyer of Images, Nice Guy, Genius

                          Comment


                          • #28
                            Originally posted by Graham View Post
                            From time immemorial (or even immoral...) the image of the Ripper in the lay mind is that of a topper-wearing Victorian toff. Maybe this all originally stems from Leonard Matters' book in the 1920's/30's in which he proposed that the Ripper was a doctor avenging the death of his son. Maybe the image goes back before then. But whatever, the famous full-face photo of a satisfied-looking Maybrick is to all intents and purposes how, if you asked him to, the Common Man would describe the Ripper. Come the anniversaries of the Ripper Murders and shortly afterwards the Maybrick Case, what better reason for some enterprising forger, who perhaps had a bit of experience in the world of journalism, to link the two and produce, or assist in the production of, a purported Diary of Jack The Ripper. For what purpose? Well, £££'s, actually. What else?

                            And I still think that Melvin Harris was probably closer to the truth than anyone these days gives him much credit for. But that's just my opinion.

                            Graham
                            Graham, is this the same Melvin Harris who said the journal could have been written using 2-3 books then just couldn't quite name them?

                            "Hold on, they're on the tip of my tongue. Er...um...ah...it could be that one...and that one...oh and that one of course...and that one obviously...and that obscure one...oh, mustn't forget that one...and that letter here and that letter there, mud-covered and all...and that very obscure reference in the States...and a book of Grand National winners, naturally. That sounds like 2-3 books to me. Sorted."
                            Iconoclast
                            Soldier of Fortune, Man of Peace, Destroyer of Images, Nice Guy, Genius

                            Comment


                            • #29
                              Well, maybe 2 or 3 books and a bit of constructive imagination, eh? I mean, given that you accept that Maybrick wrote the Diary, perhaps you know who the mysterious Mrs Hammersmith was? Or how he predicted the use of the phrase 'tin matchbox empty'? And I did use the words 'probably' and 'closer to the truth' rather than 'definitely knew the truth'.

                              Whoever wrote the Diary plainly had a reasonable working knowledge of the Ripper Murders, and padded the tale out a bit with a few pearls of 'knowledge' of his own. I think.

                              Graham
                              We are suffering from a plethora of surmise, conjecture and hypothesis. - Sherlock Holmes, The Adventure Of Silver Blaze

                              Comment


                              • #30
                                Originally posted by Iconoclast View Post
                                Graham, is this the same Melvin Harris who said the journal could have been written using 2-3 books then just couldn't quite name them?

                                "Hold on, they're on the tip of my tongue. Er...um...ah...it could be that one...and that one...oh and that one of course...and that one obviously...and that obscure one...oh, mustn't forget that one...and that letter here and that letter there, mud-covered and all...and that very obscure reference in the States...and a book of Grand National winners, naturally. That sounds like 2-3 books to me. Sorted."
                                Still jawing on about those Grand National winners, all of whom are listed in Liverpool Soundings, along with pieces on James and Florence, lol. The rest was covered by David, wasn't it?

                                Falls on deaf ears and blind eyes with you, mate.

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