Who was the author of the 'Maybrick' diary? Some options.

[Graham]

Caz and Sam,

"I seen" is also still very common, sad to say, amongst Brummies. But it's the least horrific example of how our language is mangled by the good folk of the West Midlands.

Oddly enough, in the Black Country - where the accent is totally different to Brummie - "I saw" is normally used.

Graham.

[Abby Normal]

Not in the London area it's not, Gareth. What my Mum would have called "common" is the expression "I see" used as the past tense "I saw".

I mixed with every possible class of people as I grew up and beyond into adulthood, and although "common" southerners will say the grating "I see" when they mean "I saw", I can't recall anyone but Liverpudlians or other northerners saying "I seen" when they mean "I saw". But "I seen" is not restricted to the lowest orders, as I know very well from personal experience.

Not that it should matter a jot to you, Gareth, because you believe a Scouser or two did write the diary!

Love,

Caz
X

I know this is totally off topic but what’s a scouser? Actually what are all the British nicknames for people from different areas in England?I’m fascinated by this sort of thing.

[caz]

Sorry, Caz, but that use of "seen" is not particular to Liverpool. It is very prevalent throughout Britain, particularly among those of a certain class.

Not in the London area it's not, Gareth. What my Mum would have called "common" is the expression "I see" used as the past tense "I saw".

I mixed with every possible class of people as I grew up and beyond into adulthood, and although "common" southerners will say the grating "I see" when they mean "I saw", I can't recall anyone but Liverpudlians or other northerners saying "I seen" when they mean "I saw". But "I seen" is not restricted to the lowest orders, as I know very well from personal experience.

Not that it should matter a jot to you, Gareth, because you believe a Scouser or two did write the diary!

Love,

Caz
X

[Sam Flynn]

I think Jerryd posted a press interview with Albert Bachert from 1890 which uses the phrase "gave him a call", post #8, 3rd article in this thread;

http://forum.casebook.org/showthread.php?t=10554

Indeed, and I'm not denying that, Joshua. My point is that the phrase would have become more frequently used at a later date, when widespread access to telephones become the norm, and "giving" someone a call became something that happened on a daily, indeed more frequent, basis.

We often "nip round" to visit friends in the next town, for example - whether on foot or by vehicle - and I daresay that people occasionally "nipped round" before the advent of the car. But I'll bet my bottom dollar that vastly more people would casually speak of "nipping round" somewhere only after cars became more affordable, ubiquitous and "nippy".

[Sam Flynn]

Sorry, Caz, but that use of "seen" is not particular to Liverpool. It is very prevalent throughout Britain, particularly among those of a certain class.

[caz]

I think Jerryd posted a press interview with Albert Bachert from 1890 which uses the phrase "gave him a call", post #8, 3rd article in this thread;

http://forum.casebook.org/showthread.php?t=10554

Good spot, Joshua, and of course Gary Barnett found many, many more examples from long before the late 1880s.

Love,

Caz
X

[caz]

Hello Caz

The phrase used in the diary is "the whore seen her master today", or similar. Don't know the page number offhand.

Ah yes, that sounds familiar now, Gareth. Thank you me dear.

As I said, typically Liverpudlian - not in the sense that only Scousers use it, but in the sense that I've personally lost count of the number of times I've heard or seen it used in and around Liverpool itself, or by Liverpudlians abroad [and by that I mean anywhere outside the area, not just overseas ], from the rough sleeper in the Cavern Quarter to the office clerk [like Maybrick was for a number of years after leaving school, which would have been in the early 1850s], to the history buff, like my old mate Tony, and even among the higher educated classes such as teachers.

If the hoaxer was Liverpudlian him/herself, or knew any personally, it would have been natural enough to have their "Sir Jim" write 'seen', as a jumped-up clerk with delusions of grandeur, which his basic 1840s education couldn't hope to live up to.

If they had chosen a soft southerner as their diarist and murderer, I'd have seen a red flag with that 'seen'. As it is, there is really nothing to see here.

Love,

Caz
X

[Joshua Rogan]

It needn't have been, Caz. My suggestion is that the phrase "give her a call" would have become used more frequently, almost subconsciously, when widespread access to telephones had become the norm. Prior to that, you might occasionally have "given her a call" in the sense of "popping in", but I suspect that most people would have tended to "call on her", "visit her", "pay her a visit" or similar.

I think Jerryd posted a press interview with Albert Bachert from 1890 which uses the phrase "gave him a call", post #8, 3rd article in this thread;

http://forum.casebook.org/showthread.php?t=10554

[caz]

Exactly.

Is there an echo in here?

If I were Gareth, I would be very worried indeed to have Abby chiming in with 'exactly' after my posts.

Love,

Caz
X

[caz]

It needn't have been, Caz. My suggestion is that the phrase "give her a call" would have become used more frequently, almost subconsciously, when widespread access to telephones had become the norm. Prior to that, you might occasionally have "given her a call" in the sense of "popping in", but I suspect that most people would have tended to "call on her", "visit her", "pay her a visit" or similar.

But go further back, Gareth. Don't be afraid. At the time the hoaxer was meant to have been writing - JM's time - it was much more common to say "give me a call" as in "come up and see me".

You may well argue against this, but I suspect you know it's true and will just argue that your hoaxer used the same phrase more by accident than design, because they were thinking subconsciously about the 'dog and bone' at the time.

This is not the best example in the diary of Abby's 'clunky' Victorian usage. In fact it's spot on. My grandfather was a Victorian, and in the late 1950s and early 1960s, when I was lucky enough to be in his company, I have no doubt whatsoever he'd have recognised "give her a call" for what it surely was.

Love,

Caz
X

[Sam Flynn]

Hello Caz

The phrase used in the diary is "the whore seen her master today", or similar. Don't know the page number offhand.

[caz]

The clunky attempts at Victorian in general and I seen specifically.

If you seen 'I seen' in the diary, could you direct me to the page number, so I could see it again for myself, Abby?

Thank you.

But how 'clunky' would you say Mike's known attempts at 'Victorian' were, in particular? And how would you say, in your considered opinion, do they compare with the diary text?

You do study such things before airing your views, I hope? You seem far too smart on ripper related topics to spout stuff like this without checking.

Perhaps you could address the above before thinking up your next one-liner.

Love,

Caz
X

[Abby Normal]

It needn't have been, Caz. My suggestion is that the phrase "give her a call" would have become used more frequently, almost subconsciously, when widespread access to telephones had become the norm. Prior to that, you might occasionally have "given her a call" in the sense of "popping in", but I suspect that most people would have tended to "call on her", "visit her", "pay her a visit" or similar.

Exactly.

[Sam Flynn]

If it had been used in the sense of telephoning

It needn't have been, Caz. My suggestion is that the phrase "give her a call" would have become used more frequently, almost subconsciously, when widespread access to telephones had become the norm. Prior to that, you might occasionally have "given her a call" in the sense of "popping in", but I suspect that most people would have tended to "call on her", "visit her", "pay her a visit" or similar.

[Abby Normal]

The "Barrett speak" where, Abby? In your posts or the diary?

If you mean the diary, could you direct me to something composed by Mike - anything in fact - that can be compared with the diary text, so we can all see if it resembles "Barrett speak" in any way, shape or form?

Thank you.

Love,

Caz
X

The clunky attempts at Victorian in general and I seen specifically.