Why only two threads?

[Harry D]

He's the obvious candidate:

* Worked as a butcher and therefore had anatomical knowledge and knife skills.

* Lived within the immediate vicinity of Whitechapel all his life and would've been familiar with its layout.

* Was prone to wandering the streets at late hours.

* Was a certified madman who suffered from syphilis.

* Fits the profile of the 'low class Jew' who got sent to the asylum soon after the murders stopped and died shortly thereafter, and is a much better character fit than Kosminski.

* Joseph Hyam Levy was an uncooperative witness described as having something to hide. Possibly because the person he saw on the night in question was his relation?

[Digalittledeeperwatson]

Hullo.

He's the obvious candidate:

* Worked as a butcher and therefore had anatomical knowledge and knife skills.

* Lived within the immediate vicinity of Whitechapel all his life and would've been familiar with its layout.

* Was prone to wandering the streets at late hours.

* Was a certified madman who suffered from syphilis.

* Fits the profile of the 'low class Jew' who got sent to the asylum soon after the murders stopped and died shortly thereafter, and is a much better character fit than Kosminski.

* Joseph Hyam Levy was an uncooperative witness described as having something to hide. Possibly because the person he saw on the night in question was his relation?

Yes he is quite an interesting character. But none of these things are any sort of evidence. He has no known connection with the case either, meaning no official documents or mention of him. I agree he is quite appealing to look at. Other notes of interest, he lived on Middlesex and worked in Aldergate if I recall properly. Oh, also, his brother lived in Wentworth dwellings. Be nice if something official surfaced about him. Sigh...

[Harry D]

Hello Digalittledeeperwatson,

Yes he is quite an interesting character. But none of these things are any sort of evidence.

That's plenty of evidence. In fact it's more than most on offer. Let's not confuse evidence for proof.

He had the knowledge/skill as a butcher.
He lived in the immediate area.
He was a night prowler.
He suffered from venereal disease.
He was sent to an asylum around the time the murders stopped.
He died around the time the case was closed.

Those are all solid facts that can be used to make a case for Levy.

He has no known connection with the case either, meaning no official documents or mention of him.

Perfect! All the more reason to consider his candidacy, then. Because whoever Jack was, he managed to elude the authorities.

At any rate, we don't know for certain if Anderson's crazy Jew sent to the Asylum was "Kosminski" or not. He never named him. People are willing to consider that it was a case of mistaken identity and that another Jew, such as "David Cohen" was the man in question. Why not Levy instead?

[Digalittledeeperwatson]

Hullo Harry D.

I'm not saying he shouldn't be considered and researched heavily. What I'm saying is sort of, that none of those things point to guilt of any sort. Many of those points probably held true for many many people. They are red flags worth viewing. If I was a police back then I would have paid very close attention to him. And they may have and he may have been cleared of any involvement, and we just don't have any surviving data from. He is very interesting indeed. Hopefully the researches will persist and find more.

[tji]

Hi Harry

I think there has been so little on Jacob as although he has been named as a plausible suspect for quite a while, it has only been the last few years we have really linked him to a lot of the criteria put forward for a suspect. I think this is in large down to the fact that we have the technology to sit at home and search compared to years ago when they had to physically visit the archives etc.

The fact the he was cousin to Joseph Hyam Levy I think is a great connection, they also lived quite close to each other and where both butchers. His butcher - shop was actually in the epicentre (or thereof) for the murders at 36 Middlesex Street (Petticoat Lane)
His elder brother actually committed suicide when Jacob was only 16.
His mother died (probably natural causes) in May 1888 to name but a few other tidbits.

Hi Digalittledeeperwatson

I have to say I don't agree with you when you say a lot of suspects fit all these points, they don't. I think Jacob fits a lot of salients points that would be looked for in a suspect like Jack definitely more so than a lot of suspects put forward.

As you do point out however we don't have any paperwork to connect him to the case, this is a valid point but unfortunately I think that this is one of the reasons this case will never be solved, even if a document came out with a 100% certainty that they knew who Jtr was people still wouldn't believe it as we have now been ingrained to distrust any documents found as reliable and real. The best we can do is put forward valid, well documented suspects, as we have with Jacob.

What we have managed to do when we put him forward was show that for all points we made we have the data to prove them, BMD certificates, asylum records, census reports etc and I think this is going to be the best we can do because there has been too much information lost or destroyed over the years.

We are still researching into Jacob, we just have nothing new to add just yet

Isaac did live in Wentworth buildings at the time but that was just something I put forward as an 'if only' there is no actual link to the apron or grafitti as it was the building next door unfortunately......so close yet so far.
Another (useless) interesting link to Wentworth buildings was Hyman Sampsons old butcher's shop may have been round the same spot as the apron/grafitti.

Tracy

[DVV]

I fail to see why veneral disease makes him a better suspect.
I believe the Ripper has been seen and described more than once on 30 Sept. Not only by Lawende and friends, but most certainly by Schwarz, and perhaps by Marshall, William Smith, or James Brown.
No description fits Levy.

As for the theory that the Ripper was a Jew because his family must have protected him, I simply can't buy it, and really think it's best forgotten.

Cheers

[tji]

Hi Dvv

I fail to see why veneral disease makes him a better suspect.

It is not the fact he had a venereal disease makes him a better suspect. it is the specific type of venereal disease -which was Neurosyphilis, a disease that slowly east away at the brain eventually sending you mad.

I believe the Ripper has been seen and described more than once on 30 Sept. Not only by Lawende and friends, but most certainly by Schwarz, and perhaps by Marshall, William Smith, or James Brown.
No description fits Levy.

I guess it would depend on which witness you wanted to believe, because there are quite a few different descriptions of Jack following a broad spectrum of descriptions.

As for the theory that the Ripper was a Jew because his family must have protected him, I simply can't buy it, and really think it's best forgotten.

Well that would be up to you if you feel that way, however other's think different and don't want it to be forgotten.
You have to think of the mindset of a community that was a lot different than it is today. They had just gone through a lot of prejudice with the Lipski case months earlier and feeling were still quite raw. I think they would be thinking twice before handing family members over to the Police on a hunch, to see them hanged for a crime they may not have committed.

Tracy

[Sam Flynn]

It is not the fact he had a venereal disease makes him a better suspect. it is the specific type of venereal disease -which was Neurosyphilis, a disease that slowly east away at the brain eventually sending you mad.

However much a monster he might have been, I'd wager that the Ripper was in full possession of his mental faculties and, to all intents and purposes, entirely "normal" in his demeanour.

[Brenda]

I'd wager that the Ripper was in full possession of his mental faculties and, to all intents and purposes, entirely "normal" in his demeanour.

I am in agreement with you, Sam.

I also don't believe the theory of the Ripper's mind completely imploding after the murder series. Whoever he was, the Ripper was a sociopath and I doubt the murders ever even made a scratch at his conscience. I think he was just "fine" afterwards.

[DVV]

Hi Tracy,

I'm pretty confident that Lawende and Schwartz have seen the same individual. As for Smith, Brown and Marshall, one of them, at least, has possibly described JtR.

Regarding the Anderson theory, bear in mind that for the people of 1888, Jewish or not, JtR was the ultimate monster, a creature that nobody would have protected.

Cheers

[tji]

Hi Sam/Brenda

I don't think Jack was a drooling imbecile roaming the streets but I also don't think he would have functioned normal in society. I personally would be very surprised anyone could mutilate a body like they did Mary Kelly and be normal afterwards.

Jacob in 1888 would have been feeling the affects of the syphilis mentally and physically I would imagine but not to the extent that he couldn't function or converse yet.

Tracy

[tji]

Hi Dvv

I'm pretty confident that Lawende and Schwartz have seen the same individual. As for Smith, Brown and Marshall, one of them, at least, has possibly described JtR.

I really don't want to turn this into another dissection of witnesses thread, and just to show I am not saying that cos I can't beat your argument I will admit that I just don't know enough about the witnesses to be confident in challenging your argument.

I always think witness statements should of course be noted but be used in conjunction with other evidence. Humans are so unpredictable in what we believe we see or hear.

Regarding the Anderson theory, bear in mind that for the people of 1888, Jewish or not, JtR was the ultimate monster, a creature that nobody would have protected.

Yes but it wan't just one person that they would have felt needed protecting, it was the Jewish community as a whole. They already suffered prejudice etc then the Lipski case had everyone up in arms. Don't forget the reason the graffiti was wiped off was because of the worry of riots, that is just writing on a wall. What would happen if an actual person was put forward?

That is a lot for another Jewish person to contemplate being the cause of. I am not saying they would not have come forward, I am saying I would think they would want to be 100% certain before bringing all that down on the community as a whole.

Tracy

[Harry D]

Hello Tracy,

Thanks a lot for your input!

The fact the he was cousin to Joseph Hyam Levy I think is a great connection...

Do we know this for a fact?

For me, Joseph Hyam Levy and his evasive behaviour is a serious red flag. There was a distinct impression that he was hiding something, but what?

[tji]

Hey Harry

Yes we do. Joseph Hyam Levy's father (Hyam Levy) and Jacob's father (Joseph Levy) were brother's, their parents being Isaac and Sarah Levy of 36 Middlesex Street.

Tracy

[Wickerman]

Joseph Hyam Levy was an uncooperative witness described as having something to hide. Possibly because the person he saw on the night in question was his relation?

Being uncooperative with the press is not the same as being uncooperative with the police.
Dr. Phillips was uncooperative with the press.

Believe it or not, people did view the reporter as a nuisance even back then.