Why only two threads?

[Wickerman]

Okay, thanks, Jon. So you find it very likely a blanket request for secrecy made to all three witnesses made by the City of London Police....

Yes I do.
I also see it as standard procedure for the police to caution all witnesses in the event they are called to appear at an Inquest.

And Lawende was sequestered because, in my opinion, he was the only one who could describe the suspect.

Another instance comes to mind.
Mrs Prater spoke to the press on Nov. 10th, oddly her press statement bore little resemblance to her subsequent Inquest testimony.

A result of a police caution? - I suspect so.

[Roy Corduroy]

No I disagree. Harris and Levy are being interviewed by the press, so quite obviously they've not been sworn to secrecy by the police. It is Joseph Levy we're discussing, the relative of the subject of this suspect thread. And as I pointed out, you've de-contextualized the meaning of "idiotic secrecy" as used in this news article. It's a press complaint against the police, not a reflection on the status of the people they're interviewing.

Here's that section again:

The fact remains, however, that the police, in imposing their idiotic secrecy, have a allowed a certain time to elapse before making the partial description these three witnesses have been able to give public, and thus prevent others from acting upon the information in the event of the murderer coming under their notice.

The idiotic secrecy referred to is the police not releasing the description to them, the press. It obviously has nothing to do with whether or not Harris or Levy are saying anything of value to them in the interview. The fact they are being interviewed at all speaks for itself.

You asked me to show where the police found Levy uncooperative and I answered on your terms. It doesn't exist. I've asked you to show where the police requested Levy not to say anything to the press, and instead, you've referred to a press clipping where he's being interviewed. By the the press. You can't show me where the police requested he not speak to the press. That much is patently obvious anyway.

Roy

[tji]

Hi Wicker

Crossed wires here I think, I don't believe he needed to know the escape routes from the prostitutes, I believe he knew the area quite well due to living there his whole life.

I do think he needed to escape though, I think standing around the murder scene holding a kidney would contribute significantly to him being caught 'red handed' ......


Tracy

[Wickerman]

No I disagree. Harris and Levy are being interviewed by the press, so quite obviously they've not been sworn to secrecy by the police.

The apparent fact the press are attempting to interview them has no bearing on them being sworn to secrecy, if indeed that was the case.
The proof is in the pudding, the press are getting nowhere.

It is Joseph Levy we're discussing, the relative of the subject of this suspect thread. And as I pointed out, you've de-contextualized the meaning of "idiotic secrecy" as used in this news article. It's a press complaint against the police, not a reflection on the status of the people they're interviewing.

There is no secrecy without the police.

Here's that section again:

The fact remains, however, that the police, in imposing their idiotic secrecy, have a allowed a certain time to elapse before making the partial description these three witnesses have been able to give public, and thus prevent others from acting upon the information in the event of the murderer coming under their notice.

The idiotic secrecy referred to is the police not releasing the description to them, the press.

So you think there was a limit to the police imposed secrecy.
Three witnesses exit the same club at the same time, see the same couple, and yet only one is requested to be quiet.
Ok.

You asked me to show where the police found Levy uncooperative and I answered on your terms. It doesn't exist. I've asked you to show where the police requested Levy not to say anything to the press, and instead, you've referred to a press clipping where he's being interviewed. By the the press. You can't show me where the police requested he not speak to the press. That much is patently obvious anyway.

Roy

The assertion was all yours, my words were "very likely", based on the press article alone.
I thought I made that clear the last time.

[Daisyhall1]

From what we know Lawende was protected by the police,and of the other 2 who appeared to have the same view as Lawende,Levy was 'absolutely obstinate' and seemingly was not under orders not to speak out.Why the secrecy after the inquest? Was it not in the public interest to provide what description there was available from Lawende? The suspect was facing the 3 men so much so he had a red neckerchief -so why did Levy want to get away quickly- there were 3 of them after all? Also Levy was so keen to get away,yet the suspect was facing him and he notices enough to say he was 3 " taller than Eddowes.Does that not suggest he recognised his cousin Jacob?

[Harry D]

From what we know Lawende was protected by the police,and of the other 2 who appeared to have the same view as Lawende,Levy was 'absolutely obstinate' and seemingly was not under orders not to speak out.Why the secrecy after the inquest? Was it not in the public interest to provide what description there was available from Lawende? The suspect was facing the 3 men so much so he had a red neckerchief -so why did Levy want to get away quickly- there were 3 of them after all? Also Levy was so keen to get away,yet the suspect was facing him and he notices enough to say he was 3 " taller than Eddowes.Does that not suggest he recognised his cousin Jacob?

Hey Daisyhall1,

It stands to reason that Joseph Levy recognised the Ripper that night and knew more than he was letting on. In my mind, he is the key to uncovering the Ripper... if we haven't already.

[Daisyhall1]

Hi Harry.
We have been having a long discussion on him on Ripperology facebook recently.Others will say correctly there is no proof- but there is no proof against any suspect- just a greater burden of substantial circumstantial pointers that put our man to the forefront of suspects.Certainly over Druitt,Kosminski and most others.I find the reticence of the 3 witnesses significant - one in protective custody..His cousin Joseph Hyams Levy walks awayA- yet the suspect is facing him and he can say he is 3 inches taller...? I feel after the Kelly murder he was protected certainly by his family and possibly knowingly by the police.The East End was a powder keg and a Jewish murderer would ignite all sorts of race riots.He was a butcher,knew the area and Middlesex St or Wentworth buildings are next to Goulston St - so a safe bolt hole.I think unless new evidence emerges,nothing will be proven but I feel Levy ticks all the boxes...

[Harry D]

Daisyhall1,

Jacob Levy is, without doubt, the best suspect currently available to us. Unfortunately, he doesn't really appeal to the imagination. People on CB these days seem more obsessed with some harmless carman on his way to work than they do with a man who, as you quite rightly say, ticks all the boxes. Oh, and a Jewish suspect doesn't seem to go down too favourably either, for racially sensitive reasons.

So far, the only argument I've seen against Levy is that he wasn't named by the police. That, in and of itself, does not prove anything. The police interviewed hundreds of suspects over the course of the investigation and many files have been lost to us. If the police had been onto Mr. Levy, we might not be having this discussion to begin with! Let us not also discount the sound possibility that Jacob Levy was the Butcher’s Row suspect, either.

[Daisyhall1]

I agree Harry.
I think the police were at best shambolic in this investigation and at worst would not want a Jewish serial killer on their hands.The graffiti evidence on the Jewish dwellings was erased before evidence could be gathered.Isaac Levy lived adjacent to the grafitti building- makes you wonder if Jacob was seeking sanctuary there or fled to nearby Middlesex St.The enquiry was done and dusted in no time- there seemed a reluctance to get to the truth or worse still were the suspicions buried until the suspect was incarcerated- and then CASE CLOSED !

[Amanda Sumner]

Oddly, the Jewish rabbi apparently publicly thanked the police for their sensitive (?) handling of the case which does suggest to me that a Jew was probably involved. Jacob is undoubtedly the strongest contender we have, either him or one of his kin. Joseph did, after all, have other cousins in the vicinity. Isaac being one of them.
I don't think the local bobbies were aware of who he was but it would not surprise me if it was known higher up the ranks. It is odd that the case was closed as early as it was when in effect was still an unsolved murder inquiry. Would be nice to find that one bit of evidence that irrefutably links Jacob to the murders.

[GUT]

Oddly, the Jewish rabbi apparently publicly thanked the police for their sensitive (?) handling of the case which does suggest to me that a Jew was probably involved. Jacob is undoubtedly the strongest contender we have, either him or one of his kin. Joseph did, after all, have other cousins in the vicinity. Isaac being one of them.
I don't think the local bobbies were aware of who he was but it would not surprise me if it was known higher up the ranks. It is odd that the case was closed as early as it was when in effect was still an unsolved murder inquiry. Would be nice to find that one bit of evidence that irrefutably links Jacob to the murders.

What! Just because the Rabbi says thanks for being sensitive over the anti Semitic rubbish going around a Jew was involved?

And when do you think the case was closed if it was so early?

[Amanda Sumner]

What! Just because the Rabbi says thanks for being sensitive over the anti Semitic rubbish going around a Jew was involved?

And when do you think the case was closed if it was so early?

Considering that there was daily crime, and murder, that probably involved Jews as much as anyone else, I do find it interesting that the Rabbi felt he had to publicly thank the police in this case. Especially when it was still officially unsolved. Why would he felt the need to do that? Alright I might be jumping the gun a bit, but I do find it curious.

As for the case being closed, I have come across two dates, 1891, and 1894. Jacob Levy died in 1891.

[GUT]

Well Chapman was hanged in 1903 and Abberline says "We've got the Ripper", doesn't sound too closed to me. As far as I have been able to ascertain the file was still officially open upto at least the early 30's, indeed having spoken to a number of London Police I am of the opinion [and I may be corrected here] that it was never officially closed, and it was after this that things are believed to have started disappearing.

[MrBarnett]

Amanda,

I think there was a popular belief that such horrendous crimes could not possibly be work of an Englishman. So if the perpetrator was a foreigner, the most obvious group to suspect in the East End at the time was the Jews. They were mainly recent immigrants, present in significant numbers and were not even Christian!

At a time when many of these immigrants had only recently escaped from the pogroms in Eastern Europe, the measured response of the British police to this wave of anti-Semitic feeling was acknowledged as laudable by the Jewish community.

MrB

[Amanda Sumner]

Well Chapman was hanged in 1903 and Abberline says "We've got the Ripper", doesn't sound too closed to me. As far as I have been able to ascertain the file was still officially open upto at least the early 30's, indeed having spoken to a number of London Police I am of the opinion [and I may be corrected here] that it was never officially closed, and it was after this that things are believed to have started disappearing.

I found another date:
"In the past ten years more evidence has been recovered, new information garnered through the young criminal sciences, and serious research conducted on the mystery of Jack the Ripper than at any other time since the case was officially closed in 1892"

http://www.casebook.org/intro.html

It's not stopped intense interest ever since, of course, but it was officially closed.....