Revisiting Jacob Levy

[John Wheat]

Hi Harry,

Most of the witnesses were estimating between 5'5" and 5'8", but height estimates can be tricky, particularly when a hat is being worn. I'm not saying his height excludes him, just that it is slighly less than many observations.

Cheers, George

Hi George
Its important to note we don't know which or in fact if any witnesses actually saw Jack.

Cheers John

[MrTwibbs]

I agree height is difficult to estimate - I tend to give comparative heights slightly more credence.

It's a suspect thread so the question arises - could Levy be BS man?! His 'Lipski' shout seems to suggest he isn't Jewish, but I don't think it's impossible for a Jew to be in some sense 'anti-Semitic'. And the GSG could be neatly tied in. All very speculative of course.

All the best

Unless broad shouldered man shouted "Lizzy" and not "Lipski" ?
If this were true this could point at a relationship of some sort between Broad shoulder chap and Stride?

Height is a difficult one as I do not know how a witness with little to no education would be able to give a height like 5ft 3" unless the policeman lined up a few people of different heights and asked him to select one?

[Greenway]

I can't seem to find many details on the theft, but if it's true that he had a significant amount of money on him at the time he was arrested, and that he felt 'compelled to do acts that his conscience cannot stand', I think it's probably better to think of it as kleptomania rather than petty theft.

I've wondered whether the killings might be some form of extreme kleptomania (at least to some degree).

All the best

Found some info on the theft case - seems more like an ongoing (12 months+) low level psychological warfare campaign against a business rival - stealing small amounts of inexpensive meat (with the help of a member of his rival's staff). He tried to pass it of as a jolly jape but the victim was not very happy, and Jacob ended up with 12 months hard labour. He had a breakdown after a couple of weeks and ended up in an asylum. ("Jacob The Ripper", Neil and Tracy I'Anson)

All the best.

[Aethelwulf]

How so? Several of the witnesses described a man of short stature, who was only marginally taller than his victims. Jacob Levy was 5'3".

I would say there are reasonable grounds for concluding the ripper was a short man. The most likely description has to be that made be Lawende and Hyam Levy at 1.35 am near mitre square. Given that the body of Eddowes was found at 1.45 and it would've taken him at least 5 mins to do what he did, it doesn't leave much time to meet anyone else, if this was eddowes and the ripper. Although Lawende estimated the man's height at 5'7" he was, like all the other witnesses, giving the man's height in isolation. Hyam Levy saw the same man at the same time and said he was only slightly taller than the woman, so he was using her for scale. Eddowes was 5', which means the man was probably 5'1" to 5'3".

One other thing, probably nothing, but the red neckerchief the man was wearing - the man that attacked Annie Farmer, who matches a lot of the other descriptions (30ish, mid five feet, shabby genteel, mustache) - had a scar or abscess on his neck - is that what the neckerchief was hiding? Wasn't Kelly found with a red neckerchief as well, or am I getting mixed up?

[Greenway]

One other thing, probably nothing, but the red neckerchief the man was wearing - the man that attacked Annie Farmer, who matches a lot of the other descriptions (30ish, mid five feet, shabby genteel, mustache) - had a scar or abscess on his neck - is that what the neckerchief was hiding? Wasn't Kelly found with a red neckerchief as well, or am I getting mixed up?

Hutchinson's 'suspect' gave her a red handkerchief:

Hutchinson said he paid much attention to Mary's companion, because he was surprised by his foreign appearance – "Jewish appearance", he ventured – as well as the elegance with which he dressed, an extraordinary thing in that very deprived area. The witness decided to go under the gas lamp that illuminated the entrance of the Queen's Head tavern, in order to take advantage of the better lighting and take a closer look.

As the couple passed in front of him, Kelly's client – noticing that he was being observed – scrutinized the witness with a sullen attitude and immediately lowered his head. As he lowered the hat over his eyes, his identification became difficult.

The curious witness narrated that – by that elusive gesture – he bent down to see the individual's face well. The duo headed for Dorset Street, closely followed by Hutchinson, who saw them chat for three minutes before they entered Miller's Court, where Mary had her room.

Then the companion whispered something, to which the young woman responded: "Come, I will make you feel comfortable, dear." After that, he hugged and kissed her. Before entering, Mary stopped and told him that she had lost her handkerchief, whereupon the man took out a red handkerchief and gave it to her.

Finally, both entered the inner courtyard of the building, and Hutchinson could no longer continue spying, choosing to wait outside for three quarters of an hour for them to leave. As neither came out during that period, Hutchinson left.

Hutchinson described Kelly's client as a man approximately 34 or 35 years of age, 5 feet 6 inches (1.68 m) tall, with a pale complexion, dark eyes and eyelashes, a small moustache and dark hair. He was dressed in a long, dark coat with a collar and cuffs adorned with astrakhan over a short, black jacket. He wore light pants, a dark vest, and black felt hat. He wore boots and gaiters with white buttons. On his vest, he had a very thick gold chain. He wore a black tie with a horseshoe pin. His appearance was respectable and he "walked very sharp".^[1][2][3][4]

In his time, nobody was suspicious of Hutchinson. The principal investigator of the case, Inspector Frederick Abberline, interrogated him in person, and days later told a newspaper that he estimated that Hutchinson's deposition was truthful, and that he seemed sincere. Apparently, Abberline took the testifier's version to heart, who claimed to have known Mary Jane Kelly for three years, and was friends with her.

Hutchinson also testified before the press that the day after the murder, he went out searching for the man and actually saw him. He said that he began following him with the intention of hunting him down, but the stranger noted his presence, hurried his pace and slipped through the streets of Spitalfields. After that, Hutchinson never saw the man again.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/George...ipper_suspect)

Might be worth mentioning that Jacob was very profligate between his periods of confinement, and spent a lot of time out at night.

All the best.

[MrTwibbs]

Seeing as there's a mention of Hutchinson here. Why did he go out looking for the man the next day?
It seems strange that he knows about the murder, (why else would he look for astrakhan) doesn't go to the inquest, goes out looking for astrakhan the next day after the murder and then after speaking to someone at the Victoria Home decides to tell the police.

[Abby Normal]

Seeing as there's a mention of Hutchinson here. Why did he go out looking for the man the next day?
It seems strange that he knows about the murder, (why else would he look for astrakhan) doesn't go to the inquest, goes out looking for astrakhan the next day after the murder and then after speaking to someone at the Victoria Home decides to tell the police.

i thought he just said he thought he saw the man the next day. he went out with the police looking for him a few days later after he came forward. its all bs though of course. aman was probably made up by hutch imho.

[MrTwibbs]

i thought he just said he thought he saw the man the next day. he went out with the police looking for him a few days later after he came forward. its all bs though of course. aman was probably made up by hutch imho.

Thanks Abby. I likely got that wrong or read a different source which wasn't reliable. Given what Elizabeth F Loftus has stated about witness descriptions I am of the opinion that he probably embellished it or concocted the whole story. Or maybe sighting happened on a different day and he made a genuine mistake and let his imagination run riot.

[PRIVATE INVESTIGATOR 1]

Please see my replies below.

I have no favoured suspect but I've been relooking at Levy and after reading many sources came up with a list. Comments, refutations most welcome.


Reasons for Jacob Levy’s candidacy:

• Levy contracted syphilis from local prostitutes so therefore he may have killed them out of revenge.

There is nothing to suggest that the Whitechapel Murderer had any normal sexual urges.


• He had a criminal record which was petty theft. It’s common for serial killers to have engaged in criminal activities at a young age.

You did not mention the fact that he was 30 when he was apprehended.

That hardly counts as juvenile delinquency.


• He was a butcher and therefore would have been used to cutting up animals with a knife and had a basic knowledge of anatomy

Except that neither Anderson nor Swanson mentions the Polish Jewish suspect having been a butcher, a fact which would have been of interest to the police.


So therefore could the butcher Joseph Hyam Levy have in fact recognized his neighbour the butcher Jacob Levy as the man he had seen in the company of a woman who he may have presumed to be a prostitute that was to be influential in causing him so much alarm?

Is it possible that Joseph Hyam Levy knew the suspect and was the seaside home witness?

No.

Anderson was quite definite that the witness had to be told - that he learned - that the suspect was Jewish.

That means they could not have been acquainted.


On reading Robert Anderson’s memoirs and Swanson’s marginalia it does indicate that the witness was able to “unhesitatingly” identify the suspect which indicates he knew him or had a close look at him.

If he had known him, he would have known he was Jewish, in which case he would not have come forward in the first place.


• Highly respected Detective Inspector Robert Sagar (former medical student. Born 1852 died 1924) of the City Of London Police said he believed the ripper to be a butcher who lived in the Aldgate area. "Reynolds News" (15 September 1946) printed an extract from Sagar's unpublished, and now untraced, memoirs. Sagar wrote that "We had good reason to suspect a man who worked in Butcher's Row, Aldgate. We watched him carefully. There was no doubt that this man was insane, and after a time his friends thought it advisable to have him removed to a private asylum. After he was removed there were no more Ripper atrocities."

Sagar claimed that his suspect was of Jewish appearance.

Anderson claimed that his suspect was not of Jewish appearance.

If Levy was Sagar's suspect, he could not have been Anderson's.


• George Hutchinson claimed he had seen the Jewish man who was in the company of MJK on the night of the Millers court murder in Middlesex street shortly after the murder. Police were unable to locate the man in question.

Hutchinson's suspect was three inches taller than Levy.


• Detective Inspector Harry Cox of the City Of London Police He wrote in 1906 that he was involved in a 3 month surveillance of a Jewish suspect after MJK murder and this suspect lived in the East End and he ran a business. Cox said the motive was revenge as he had been wronged by a woman of the lower classes. He said the suspect spent time in an asylum in Surrey and was known to take nightly walks. Cox states that there were no further murders because suspect knew he was being watched by them. He also states that no evidence was found to connect their suspect with the murders. In 1906 Harry Cox does not know what became of their suspect. It is possible the suspect he is speaking of is Levy but he was not in an asylum in Surrey.

It is not possible.

Jacob Levy was a butcher, whereas Cox's suspect was a shopkeeper.

Jacob Levy was certified in August 1890.

Cox's suspect was under surveillance in 1891, after Levy had been certified.

Jacob Levy could not have been Cox's suspect nor Anderson's suspect.

[DJA]

aman was probably made up by hutch imho.

Do you reckon JtR had a hand in that ?

[DJA]

Unless broad shouldered man shouted "Lizzy" and not "Lipski" ?
If this were true this could point at a relationship of some sort between Broad shoulder chap and Stride?

How about "Lip! See".

[PRIVATE INVESTIGATOR 1]

Can't you make a serious comment for once?

[DJA]

Can't you make a serious comment for once?

Henry Gawen Sutton - Wikipedia

Hereditary hemorrhagic telangiectasia - Wikipedia

Catechu - Wikipedia

Astringent - Wikipedia

[DJA]

aman was probably made up by hutch imho.

Sir Henry Matthews - Home Secretary

[PRIVATE INVESTIGATOR 1]

Sir Henry Matthews - Home Secretary

After having requested that I stop posting comments about Chapman's time of death on a thread dealing with the murderer's escape route from Mitre Square, why are you posting links to articles about Henry Gawen Sutton, Hereditary hemorrhagic telangiectasia, Catechu, Astringent, and Sir Henry Matthews on a thread about Jacob Levy?