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Revisiting Jacob Levy

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  • MrTwibbs
    replied
    Originally posted by Abby Normal View Post

    i thought he just said he thought he saw the man the next day. he went out with the police looking for him a few days later after he came forward. its all bs though of course. aman was probably made up by hutch imho.
    Thanks Abby. I likely got that wrong or read a different source which wasn't reliable. Given what Elizabeth F Loftus has stated about witness descriptions I am of the opinion that he probably embellished it or concocted the whole story. Or maybe sighting happened on a different day and he made a genuine mistake and let his imagination run riot.

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  • Abby Normal
    replied
    Originally posted by MrTwibbs View Post
    Seeing as there's a mention of Hutchinson here. Why did he go out looking for the man the next day?
    It seems strange that he knows about the murder, (why else would he look for astrakhan) doesn't go to the inquest, goes out looking for astrakhan the next day after the murder and then after speaking to someone at the Victoria Home decides to tell the police.
    i thought he just said he thought he saw the man the next day. he went out with the police looking for him a few days later after he came forward. its all bs though of course. aman was probably made up by hutch imho.

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  • MrTwibbs
    replied
    Seeing as there's a mention of Hutchinson here. Why did he go out looking for the man the next day?
    It seems strange that he knows about the murder, (why else would he look for astrakhan) doesn't go to the inquest, goes out looking for astrakhan the next day after the murder and then after speaking to someone at the Victoria Home decides to tell the police.

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  • Greenway
    replied
    Originally posted by Aethelwulf View Post

    One other thing, probably nothing, but the red neckerchief the man was wearing - the man that attacked Annie Farmer, who matches a lot of the other descriptions (30ish, mid five feet, shabby genteel, mustache) - had a scar or abscess on his neck - is that what the neckerchief was hiding? Wasn't Kelly found with a red neckerchief as well, or am I getting mixed up?
    Hutchinson's 'suspect' gave her a red handkerchief:

    Hutchinson said he paid much attention to Mary's companion, because he was surprised by his foreign appearance – "Jewish appearance", he ventured – as well as the elegance with which he dressed, an extraordinary thing in that very deprived area. The witness decided to go under the gas lamp that illuminated the entrance of the Queen's Head tavern, in order to take advantage of the better lighting and take a closer look.

    As the couple passed in front of him, Kelly's client – noticing that he was being observed – scrutinized the witness with a sullen attitude and immediately lowered his head. As he lowered the hat over his eyes, his identification became difficult.

    The curious witness narrated that – by that elusive gesture – he bent down to see the individual's face well. The duo headed for Dorset Street, closely followed by Hutchinson, who saw them chat for three minutes before they entered Miller's Court, where Mary had her room.

    Then the companion whispered something, to which the young woman responded: "Come, I will make you feel comfortable, dear." After that, he hugged and kissed her. Before entering, Mary stopped and told him that she had lost her handkerchief, whereupon the man took out a red handkerchief and gave it to her.

    Finally, both entered the inner courtyard of the building, and Hutchinson could no longer continue spying, choosing to wait outside for three quarters of an hour for them to leave. As neither came out during that period, Hutchinson left.

    Hutchinson described Kelly's client as a man approximately 34 or 35 years of age, 5 feet 6 inches (1.68 m) tall, with a pale complexion, dark eyes and eyelashes, a small moustache and dark hair. He was dressed in a long, dark coat with a collar and cuffs adorned with astrakhan over a short, black jacket. He wore light pants, a dark vest, and black felt hat. He wore boots and gaiters with white buttons. On his vest, he had a very thick gold chain. He wore a black tie with a horseshoe pin. His appearance was respectable and he "walked very sharp".[1][2][3][4]

    In his time, nobody was suspicious of Hutchinson. The principal investigator of the case, Inspector Frederick Abberline, interrogated him in person, and days later told a newspaper that he estimated that Hutchinson's deposition was truthful, and that he seemed sincere. Apparently, Abberline took the testifier's version to heart, who claimed to have known Mary Jane Kelly for three years, and was friends with her.

    Hutchinson also testified before the press that the day after the murder, he went out searching for the man and actually saw him. He said that he began following him with the intention of hunting him down, but the stranger noted his presence, hurried his pace and slipped through the streets of Spitalfields. After that, Hutchinson never saw the man again.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/George...ipper_suspect)

    Might be worth mentioning that Jacob was very profligate between his periods of confinement, and spent a lot of time out at night.

    All the best.
    Last edited by Greenway; 09-24-2021, 10:38 PM.

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  • Aethelwulf
    replied
    Originally posted by Harry D View Post

    How so? Several of the witnesses described a man of short stature, who was only marginally taller than his victims. Jacob Levy was 5'3".
    I would say there are reasonable grounds for concluding the ripper was a short man. The most likely description has to be that made be Lawende and Hyam Levy at 1.35 am near mitre square. Given that the body of Eddowes was found at 1.45 and it would've taken him at least 5 mins to do what he did, it doesn't leave much time to meet anyone else, if this was eddowes and the ripper. Although Lawende estimated the man's height at 5'7" he was, like all the other witnesses, giving the man's height in isolation. Hyam Levy saw the same man at the same time and said he was only slightly taller than the woman, so he was using her for scale. Eddowes was 5', which means the man was probably 5'1" to 5'3".

    One other thing, probably nothing, but the red neckerchief the man was wearing - the man that attacked Annie Farmer, who matches a lot of the other descriptions (30ish, mid five feet, shabby genteel, mustache) - had a scar or abscess on his neck - is that what the neckerchief was hiding? Wasn't Kelly found with a red neckerchief as well, or am I getting mixed up?

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  • Greenway
    replied
    Originally posted by Greenway View Post

    I can't seem to find many details on the theft, but if it's true that he had a significant amount of money on him at the time he was arrested, and that he felt 'compelled to do acts that his conscience cannot stand', I think it's probably better to think of it as kleptomania rather than petty theft.

    I've wondered whether the killings might be some form of extreme kleptomania (at least to some degree).

    All the best
    Found some info on the theft case - seems more like an ongoing (12 months+) low level psychological warfare campaign against a business rival - stealing small amounts of inexpensive meat (with the help of a member of his rival's staff). He tried to pass it of as a jolly jape but the victim was not very happy, and Jacob ended up with 12 months hard labour. He had a breakdown after a couple of weeks and ended up in an asylum. ("Jacob The Ripper", Neil and Tracy I'Anson)

    All the best.
    Last edited by Greenway; 09-24-2021, 09:02 PM.

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  • MrTwibbs
    replied
    Originally posted by Greenway View Post

    I agree height is difficult to estimate - I tend to give comparative heights slightly more credence.

    It's a suspect thread so the question arises - could Levy be BS man?! His 'Lipski' shout seems to suggest he isn't Jewish, but I don't think it's impossible for a Jew to be in some sense 'anti-Semitic'. And the GSG could be neatly tied in. All very speculative of course.

    All the best
    Unless broad shouldered man shouted "Lizzy" and not "Lipski" ?
    If this were true this could point at a relationship of some sort between Broad shoulder chap and Stride?

    Height is a difficult one as I do not know how a witness with little to no education would be able to give a height like 5ft 3" unless the policeman lined up a few people of different heights and asked him to select one?

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  • John Wheat
    replied
    Originally posted by GBinOz View Post

    Hi Harry,

    Most of the witnesses were estimating between 5'5" and 5'8", but height estimates can be tricky, particularly when a hat is being worn. I'm not saying his height excludes him, just that it is slighly less than many observations.

    Cheers, George
    Hi George
    Its important to note we don't know which or in fact if any witnesses actually saw Jack.

    Cheers John

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  • Greenway
    replied
    Originally posted by Herlock Sholmes View Post
    Height is a difficult one to use to exonerate someone unless the suspect was 4’2” or 6’10.” Distance, posture can all come into play. Personally I don’t see Levy’s height as an issue.
    I agree height is difficult to estimate - I tend to give comparative heights slightly more credence.

    It's a suspect thread so the question arises - could Levy be BS man?! His 'Lipski' shout seems to suggest he isn't Jewish, but I don't think it's impossible for a Jew to be in some sense 'anti-Semitic'. And the GSG could be neatly tied in. All very speculative of course.

    All the best
    Last edited by Greenway; 09-24-2021, 10:02 AM.

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  • Greenway
    replied
    He had a criminal record which was petty theft. It’s common for serial killers to have engaged in criminal activities at a young age.
    I can't seem to find many details on the theft, but if it's true that he had a significant amount of money on him at the time he was arrested, and that he felt 'compelled to do acts that his conscience cannot stand', I think it's probably better to think of it as kleptomania rather than petty theft.

    I've wondered whether the killings might be some form of extreme kleptomania (at least to some degree).

    All the best

    Leave a comment:


  • Herlock Sholmes
    replied
    Height is a difficult one to use to exonerate someone unless the suspect was 4’2” or 6’10.” Distance, posture can all come into play. Personally I don’t see Levy’s height as an issue.

    Leave a comment:


  • GBinOz
    replied
    Originally posted by Harry D View Post

    How so? Several of the witnesses described a man of short stature, who was only marginally taller than his victims. Jacob Levy was 5'3".
    Hi Harry,

    Most of the witnesses were estimating between 5'5" and 5'8", but height estimates can be tricky, particularly when a hat is being worn. I'm not saying his height excludes him, just that it is slighly less than many observations.

    Cheers, George

    Leave a comment:


  • MrTwibbs
    replied
    Originally posted by Greenway View Post

    If Levy was the SH suspect I think it's much more likely that Lawende was the witness - There's little point in taking his cousin to identify him. They'd just have to ask the question 'did you see your cousin on the night of the murder'? Lawende would be the logical choice to ID by sight.

    Joseph's reaction could be interpreted as being alarmed by the presence of his 'no good cousin', rather than offence at the presence of a prostitute.

    All the best
    After reading it all over again and learning from Abby Normal and Scott Nelson that Joseph Levy was Jacob's cousin,I'm now starting to think that Joseph Hyam Levy could not have been the witness if Jacob Levy was the sea side home suspect. Which suggests to me that Jacob Hyam Levy did not see his cousin speaking to Eddowes. As you rightly mentioned regarding the "did you see your cousin on the night of the murder?"

    Joseph Levy's obstinacy could be put down to not wanting to get involved or being so scared by the incident.
    "the secrecy and knowing air the frustrated press encountered in Levy was probably little more than self-importance" page 129 of Scotland Yard Investigates.

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  • Greenway
    replied
    therefore could the butcher Joseph Hyam Levy have in fact recognized his neighbour the butcher Jacob Levy as the man he had seen in the company of a woman who he may have presumed to be a prostitute that was to be influential in causing him so much alarm? Is it possible that Joseph Hyam Levy knew the suspect and was the seaside home witness?
    If Levy was the SH suspect I think it's much more likely that Lawende was the witness - There's little point in taking his cousin to identify him. They'd just have to ask the question 'did you see your cousin on the night of the murder'? Lawende would be the logical choice to ID by sight.

    Joseph's reaction could be interpreted as being alarmed by the presence of his 'no good cousin', rather than offence at the presence of a prostitute.

    All the best

    Leave a comment:


  • MrTwibbs
    replied
    Originally posted by GBinOz View Post

    Hi MrTwibbs,

    "observations during his term at Stone was that his wife had complained that he almost ruined her business: "he also feels that if he is not restrained he will do some violence to someone; he complains about hearing strange noises; cries for no reason; feels compelled to do acts that his conscience cannot stand; and has a conscience of a feeling of exaltation". His wife also revealed that he was formerly a shrewd businessman and that "he does not sleep at nights and wanders around aimlessly for hours""

    Levy is very high on my list of suspects. It would be very odd if his cousin, Joseph Levy, had not recognised him if it was he talking to the woman thought to be Eddows at Mitre Square. He is a closer fit to Anderson's suspect that Kosminski, was in Stone asylum as recalled by Anderson's wife, died 3 years after MJK as recalled by McNaughten. He was likely the man referred to by Sagar, Hutchinson and Cox. The GSG was written very near the location of Sampson's shop, the man who Levy blamed for ruining his reputation. He would have spoken english like an Englishman and have a thorough knowledge of the area and fits the profile. How many other suspects have this many pointers of suspicion?

    The biggest point against his candidacy is his height.

    Cheers, George
    Good stuff. I forgot about that quote.
    One point I should mention about lady Anderson being claimed to have said that it was an asylum near stone. Steward Hicks (R.I.P) the researcher from Norfolk is claimed to be the source of this story but was unable to recall his source which does imply that it did not come directly from lady Anderson which presents a big problem. Side note: I believe Steward's favoured suspect was a Dr Hewitt but this was later refuted. So if the Lady Anderston story did come from Hicks then he didn't have a dog in the fight because he wasn't considering Jacob Levy and probably had never heard of him at the time.

    jacob Levy sounds like he suffered from paranoid delusions (strange voices, impulse control/limbic system problems) much like Aaron Kosminski so as some of said before this might account for cross over between the two chaps and it is possible that the City of London police had Jacob Levy on their suspect radar (despite no police file naming him?) but that doesn't necessarily mean he is JTR.

    I agree he does fit the Detective Sagar and Cox's account quite well. However I view JTR as an organized offender and Levy like Aaron Kosminski falls into the disorganized type due to his mental health issues. A mental illness like paranoid schizophrenia affects a person's emotional brain would show signs strange behaviour and be more likely to be noticed and commented on (eg: Levy and Kosminski) , the murders would have been more spontaneous and committed at various times, and very likely more easily caught due to the evidence left behind or the inability to cover their tracks or hide the evidence. So it is unlikely in my opinion but not impossible that Jack The Ripper suffered from a mental disorder like paranoid schizophrenia whose symptoms include but are not limited to: seeing, hearing or tasting things which others cannot, having a persistent and unusual belief system, decline in hygiene, lack of motivation (not working for many years like Kosminski)

    Last edited by MrTwibbs; 09-23-2021, 10:57 AM.

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