Jacob Levy

[tji]

Hi Lily

Does anybody know when Levy lived at Fieldgate st?

[/QUOTE]

We don't know when he actually moved from Fieldgate Street as yet but what we do know is that he lived there in the 1881 census but by the time of his arrest for theft in 1885 he was living at 36 Middelsex Street.

Tracy

[Errata]

Do we know anything about Jacob Levy's hair color or skin complexion?

As an Ashkenazi Jew it is reasonable to assume he had the brown hair/eyes gene, and pale sallow skin.

There are of course variations, myself included, but it's usually a result of mixed breeding. Which back then seems a bit unlikely given the isolation of The Pale. And the brown hair/eyes gene is stubborn enough to reassert after a couple generations. So unless his mother was impregnated by a blond Russian, it would be my default.

[Damaso Marte]

Do we know anything about Jacob Levy's hair color or skin complexion?

[lilyofthevalley]

Just going to leave this here as well: this map shows that 11 Fieldgate st where Levy at one point lived, is right at the top of Greenfield st around the corner of Sion sq. where Kosminski lived.

When we look at the point between Middlesex st and Fieldgate st the place where Martha Tabram was found is almost exactly in the middle of these two streets.

Does anybody know when Levy lived at Fieldgate st?

[lilyofthevalley]

Good point.

I've been reading up on Kosminski and the similarities are quite striking. Levy at some point lived just around the corner of Sion sq. Could there have been a mix up?

Finally, we must not forget that ‘Kosminski’ was identified by a witness. According to Sir Robert Anderson, the suspect was ‘unhesitantly’ identified by ‘the only person who ever had a good view of the murderer.’ Interestingly, he also notes that the suspect ‘knew he was identified’. The identity of this witness is still a subject of much heated debate amongst Ripperologists. It is clear that the witness was a ‘fellow Jew’, as this is the reason, according to both Anderson and Swanson, that he refused to give evidence in court. In my opinion, the witness was probably Joseph Lawende, the Jewish commercial traveler who witnessed a man and a women talking at the entrance to Church Passage in Duke Street just prior to the murder of Catherine Eddowes. The other most likely candidate is Israel Schwartz, who witnessed a man attacking Liz Stride in Berner Street, just before she was murdered some 10 feet away in Dutfield’s Yard. The only other possible Jewish witness is Joseph Levy, who was with Lawende and also witnessed the same couple standing at Church Passage; but Levy claimed to have not got a good look at the man, and said ‘I passed on, taking no further notice of them’. In the final analysis, the identity of the witness is perhaps not relevant for the purpose of this article. The simple fact is that the suspect ‘Kosminski’ was identified by someone described as ‘the only person who ever had a good view of the murderer.’

What if it wasn't Lawende, but the reluctant Joseph Levy who recognized his coreligionist and family member? The whole article on Kosminski is quite interesting because a lot applies to Levy (for instance Levy had older (step)sisters).

[Harry D]

I'm curious to see what geographic profiling could tell us in connection to Jacob Levy. When I look at the map Middlesex street is right at the triangle between Eddowes, Chapman and Stride. So for the sake of argument, if Levy was JtR and he did use his very direct surroundings as his hunting ground, Buck's Row seems to be a bit further out. Is there any information about Levy that could explain why he would be there at that time of night?

Depends. If it was his first kill, maybe he trolled for victims slightly further afield before establishing his comfort zone? After all, there was a good chance that Lechmere disturbed the killer as he came down Buck's Row.

[lilyofthevalley]

David Canter names Middlesex street as the area where JtR may have lived: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QCdskRH-B6s

But of course other profilers have pointed to other streets as well if only it was that easy, but I do find Levy a very interesting suspect.

[lilyofthevalley]

geographic profile?

I'm curious to see what geographic profiling could tell us in connection to Jacob Levy. When I look at the map Middlesex street is right at the triangle between Eddowes, Chapman and Stride. So for the sake of argument, if Levy was JtR and he did use his very direct surroundings as his hunting ground, Buck's Row seems to be a bit further out. Is there any information about Levy that could explain why he would be there at that time of night?

[GregBaron]

Will the real Leather Apron please stand up...

Below is a description from Lloyd's contained in Simon Wood's fine article
"One Lone Maniac Too Many" about Leather Apron in the latest ripper...132

Aged 30 years; height, 5ft. 3in.; complexion dark, sallow; hair and
moustache black; thick set; dressed in old and dirty clothing; and is of Jewish appearance...

Sounds like our VIF Jacob..................just sayin..


Greg

[Errata]

Hi Eratta

The problem is it is not our job to convince you, we have put the facts and hypothesis there for you and it is upto you to make up your mind.

If you disagree then again that is your choice however if you disagree because you tell us our research is incorrect then we will argue the toss with you.

I don't feel the need to go into the explanation of syphilis again (see other boards where we have had this discussion), however, if, after you have read the asylum records I will post and you still have the questions then we will take it from there?

I swear to god, I'm giving up after this. But first I feel the need to say one thing. YOU have put out facts.YOU have put of a hypothesis. YOU have done work on this. Not everybody else has. Not everybody has thought this through the way you have. And not everyone agrees with your reasoning, even if they agree with your suspect. Someone comes in here and repeats the twaddle about syphilis babies and I shouldn't challenge that? I shouldn't want to hear other explanations as to why this guy is a good candidate? I know why YOU think he's a good candidate. But not everybody who thinks he is a good candidate believes that for the same reasons you believe that. Yours is not the only argument. I shouldn't want to hear others?

It isn't someone's job to convince me. But if someone states an opinion, it is not unusual for me to what to know why.

And I'm done. It's not that I don't care, it's that I don't care nearly enough to cause umbrage.

[tji]

Hi Eratta

The problem is it is not our job to convince you, we have put the facts and hypothesis there for you and it is upto you to make up your mind.

If you disagree then again that is your choice however if you disagree because you tell us our research is incorrect then we will argue the toss with you.

I don't feel the need to go into the explanation of syphilis again (see other boards where we have had this discussion), however, if, after you have read the asylum records I will post and you still have the questions then we will take it from there?

Hi Scott

Yes Mark King did seem to think along the same lines, would love to have a peak at his research, but he doesn't seem to come onto the boards as far as I know? (i.e some people changed their name after the 'big crash')

We actually have a G. Bolam foods - it is like a meat/butchers supermarket. Be good to know if he is descendant from 'your' Bolams.

As to the John Levy, I haven't come across him in the research I have done on the Levy's, but I don't mind having a look into him and his family, it's not that I am nosey or anything - just naturally curious

[Scott Nelson]

He also knows there is no benefit to doing that much damage to a throat.....Nothing about the blood, the gore, the bits would register. But Jack had a pretty good sense of theater. He saw things in a not jaded to gore kind of way.

It was probably rage in every case. No accidental slips of the knife. He cut where he wanted and took what he needed.

[Errata]

Fine post as it is a usual occurence, it is kinda expected and appreciated. Gonna go real slow with this. First, problems? Is that not an interpretation? Depending upon perspective? Cutting up a freshly made dead human is not quite what any butcher is taught to do. Gonna stop and allow you to respond and explain what problems you are refering to.

On Polly Nichols we have a series of cuts That are parallel to each other, but of radically different depth. One cut was deep enough to expose the intestines. That's unusual. It is also my impression (which could be wrong) that throughout every murder, the throat cuts shallow up pretty steeply. Essentially going from a scratch to hitting bone. That's usually indicative or a person who does not have a lot of familiarity with a long knife. Chapman's murder was textbook, but I wonder that he took the bladder. It is right up against the uterus, but all things being equal, because the bladder is in front of the uterus, one would expect the bladder to be removed, then the uterus removed. It make me wonder if he accidentally cut through the uterus, and decided just to take the whole tissue block. Eddowes was butchered. He used a long knife on her face, he tries to cut off her nose, but he cuts into her cheeks so deeply that he cannot complete the severing. He has to do it again, cutting the nose lower than the initial cut. he accidentally severs her bowels trying to remove the uterus, spraying it everywhere. And he has a weird skip going from hip to peritoneum. It's like he was doing this in the bed of a truck that was moving.

A butcher knows some stuff. He knows how to use different kinds of knives. He knows what knives to use to accomplish any given task. His movement and adjustments are second nature. He also knows there is no benefit to doing that much damage to a throat. Cutting the artery on one side gets the job done. Which means the throat cutting is a fetish, which means it showed up elsewhere in his life. And to the best of my knowledge (and information is clearly limited) that wasn't the case. Butchers have seen it all. Nothing about the blood, the gore, the bits would register. But Jack had a pretty good sense of theater. He saw things in a not jaded to gore kind of way. Certainly Mary Kelly's killer staged an Oscar worthy scene calculated to provoke horror. To me that says someone who can still see it. The gore, the horror most people feel when confronted with blood and guts. Butchers and surgeons man, I swear to god they don't even see it. Like I don't even see the sculpture my dad gave me 10 years ago. Just part of the normal environment.

I mean, we're from Tennessee. We're used to seeing snakes. I can't even come up with a way to make someone really freak out with a snake, and it wouldn't even occur to me to try. It's a snake. Like many others. My friend from Scotland levitated to the roof of my house when he saw a 6 inch rat snake. I don't get why snakes provoke horror. I don't see it. That's what I mean. I don't think a butcher sees what we see. I KNOW surgeons don't see what we see. For us it's weird and horrible. For them it's Thursday. There's no theater in it being Thursday. But Jack had some drama to him.
And frankly, if Jack had been a butcher I think he would a: have no problem with taking a head and b: been able to get into the abdomen without a bunch of cuts or varying depth. Gutting an animal, whether it be bovine or human should have been easy to a butcher. It wasn't easy for Jack. It wasn't an "I could do this blind" kinda thing.

[Scott Nelson]

Jack appears to have some problems. Do you disagree?

Problems using any particular type of knife? I don't think we'll ever know for sure.

As for the rest of your post, I couldn't provide any certain answers. The information Levy's records are open to interpretation.

As I've commented before, Mark King took a particular interest in Jacob Levy because he was the cousin of one of the "witnesses," Joseph H. Levy, and King thought Joseph's comments to the inquest and to the press revealed an evasive manner. Research on Levy's family and former residence at 36 Petticoat Lane hen brought Jacob Levy into the forefront.

[Digalittledeeperwatson]

Hullo Errata!

Fine post as it is a usual occurence, it is kinda expected and appreciated. Gonna go real slow with this. First, problems? Is that not an interpretation? Depending upon perspective? Cutting up a freshly made dead human is not quite what any butcher is taught to do. Gonna stop and allow you to respond and explain what problems you are refering to.