Jacob Levy

[tji]

One of the downsides of Levy as a suspect is that it is entirely possible that the only motive ever attributed to him is based on flawed thinking. It is true that he is listed as having died from the neurological effects of syphilis. General paresis of the insane I think? The problem is that he was hospitalized for a psychiatric disorder earlier. Much earlier than can be explained by syphilis. He also never infected his wife. Without infecting his wife he could not have infected his children. And we know they had sex because children were born during the time period in question. So the facial deformity aspect of the motive clearly isn't true. Nor does it make sense for him to kill prostitutes for giving him syphilis if he never had syphilis. And all things being even, if he did not infect his wife whom he continued to have sexual relations with, odds are he didn't have it. Odds are he had psychological and neurological issues completely unconnected with syphilis, but there was no other diagnosis available to him. So if that's true... why would he be killing prostitutes?

I don't mean to sound short Eratta but did you ever bother to read the article we wrote on Jacob?
This is the same debate we had on the other Jacob thread in which I pointed out the problem with your answer. If you feel the need to know the answer maybe you could just read the answer I gave you last time?

Where did his other brother live? And anything on their Mum?

Hi Digger (if I may call you that)

His brother who lived in Wentworth Street was Isaac Levy, he died of T.B in 1901, he lived at 124-130 Wentworth buildings at the time of the murders.

His mam was named Caroline and she died in May of 1888, we did wonder if this could have been a stressor for Jacob.

May I ask if you have read the Jacob the ripper? thread in the suspects part, we have gone into more detail in there. Also we wrote an article in the Ripperologist that gave more details of his stays in the asylums.

Which is then a completely different motive than the syphilis revenge story. So he had enough "issues" to land him in an asylum twice. But was he violent? Mental issues manifest differently for everyone. "Invincibility" mania is not the same as "Hair-trigger temper" mania. So if he killed because of mental illness, there would be signs. So were there signs?

I don't inherently object to Levy being a murderer, I just object to him being a murderer for a reason that doesn't make a lot of sense.

My arguments for him being a suspect seem to make a lot more sense than your arguments against him. We do not say he is a suspect solely because he had syphilis, this is just one of the hard facts we have put forward for Jacob being a suspect.

Upon my recent, very much so, delve into the subject, it would depend on which stage he was in at the possible varying times. His wife could have, how you say, continually dodged the bullet until he was no longer infectious. If so I should say she was a lucky duck at least in one way. Although I think Syphilis had no bearing on the murders. People make choices. Compulsion of that nature is a rarity. Like most people who murder, I think the killer(s) we are searching for made that decision. Morality is like so much makeup, applied.

I agree Digger. On the Jacob updated thread I have in fact gone into detail on syphilis and how it can affect people.
It is quite conceivable that Jacob caught the syphilis before marrying Sarah and would have been out of the contagious phase. This would mean that he then had a chance of contracting Neurosyphilis, which would reach it's peak years later, this final stage last on average of 5 years. Jacob's documented deterioration? 1886-1891

We didn't mention this in the article as it is my theory alone, Neil leans towards a different theory.

I would imagine the syphilis may have contributed to his way of thinking, but I also believe it wouldn't have 'controlled' his thoughts at this time.

[Paddy]

Jacobs father Joseph in 1841

So far this looks like Jacob Levys father Joseph b 1821, with mother Sarah at 38 Petticoat Lane. This fits with the details I posted previously.
Hyam (Joseph Hyam Levys father) had already left home unfortunately.

These names fit exactly to the family previously posted

Pat

[Michael W Richards]

Waow...
People are worse than Anderson here around.
After Schwartz saving the bacon of a Jewish club member in Berner Street, here is Hyam saving the Ripper's bacon in Mitre Square.

What a double event.

We are looking for motives David, it has little if anything,...well maybe to Anderson,.. about Ethnicity, other than perhaps the geographical ramifications of a murder spree within a mile and the population profile of that area.

The club did need to appear clean, their continued operations relied on that....and who knows about Mitre?

Cheers David.

[Paddy]

Court case

Not sure if this has been mentioned?
From Old Bailey April 5th 1856

MORRIS PHILLIPS (30), MOSS WOOLF (16), and JACOB LEVY (30) , Stealing 14 lb. of meat of Hyman Sampson, the master of Phillips and Woolf.

In it it states :Cross-examined by MR. GEOGHEGAN. I cannot say whether these men are rival butchers; they are both Jews—when he said that he did it for a lark Mr. sampson said "You will be locked up for it"—he valued the meat at 6d. per lb.—this is Petticoat Lane, and there are other butchers in the street—it was about the time a man would go to market.

This Jacob was born 1856 , was a butcher and worked in Petticoat Lane area as a butcher. I shuould think it is the right one.
He got 12 months imprisonment

Pat...........

[Paddy]

To make previous post clearer

Mordacai Levy and his wife Sarah had 6 children, all born St Boltolph Middlesex

Two of the children were

Hyam (a butcher) born 1810 who married Francis and their son was Joseph Hyam Levy
Joseph (a butcher) born 1821 who married a Catherine and their son was Jacob Levy b1856
The census all pan out but have to find marriages

Which oooops! Means they were cousins...
.......
There used to be a site that had the great synagogue marriages online, anybody remember what it is ?

Pat.......................

[Abby Normal]

No problem Abbster..........no reason to cease and desist..

I agree with your point about suspects/persons of interest..

I have no idea if the ripper is Jew, Gentile or Zoroastrian....

I hope Jimi and Tracey and others are able to dig up more about this guy...

Perhaps you have coined the term we should use....a very intriguing fellow...


Greg

A VIF indeed!

[GregBaron]

Keep your eye on him...

Hi Greg and digger
I see where you guys are coming from but I made my points and since this is a Jacob Levy thread I will shut up now.

Hopefully more can be found that connects him to the case.

Props to all who have done research on him, as I said earlier, a very intriguing fellow!

No problem Abbster..........no reason to cease and desist..

I agree with your point about suspects/persons of interest..

I have no idea if the ripper is Jew, Gentile or Zoroastrian....

I hope Jimi and Tracey and others are able to dig up more about this guy...

Perhaps you have coined the term we should use....a very intriguing fellow...


Greg

[Abby Normal]

It's not that he's a Jew Abby but that he's a dude that....

1) Is a butcher
2) Roams the streets at night
3) Steals stuff
4) Solicits prostitutes
5) Has syphilis
6) Drinks too much
7) Is a cousin of Mitre Square witness who freaked out
8) Lives in the heart of the district
9) Could be Cox or Sagar's suspect
10) Was caged in an asylum and expired...

I pulled these from memory off the top....I may have flubbed some and I'm sure there's more.................this dude is interesting whether he's a crazy Jew or a one-eyed dancing Mormon...


Greg

Hi Greg and digger
I see where you guys are coming from but I made my points and since this is a Jacob Levy thread I will shut up now.

Hopefully more can be found that connects him to the case.

Props to all who have done research on him, as I said earlier, a very intriguing fellow!

[GregBaron]

Ticks the boxes...

Not so for Jacob levy. Except that he was a contemperous crazy Jew

It's not that he's a Jew Abby but that he's a dude that....

1) Is a butcher
2) Roams the streets at night
3) Steals stuff
4) Solicits prostitutes
5) Has syphilis
6) Drinks too much
7) Is a cousin of Mitre Square witness who freaked out
8) Lives in the heart of the district
9) Could be Cox or Sagar's suspect
10) Was caged in an asylum and expired...

I pulled these from memory off the top....I may have flubbed some and I'm sure there's more.................this dude is interesting whether he's a crazy Jew or a one-eyed dancing Mormon...


Greg

[Digalittledeeperwatson]

As it pertains to Levy

I kinda think the notion of him killing Eddowes and going home to deposit his spoils then going the next street over and leaving the apron and GSG as a warning to cousin or maybe brother. Someone suggested before that the message may have been directed at a specific individual. Interesting indeed.

[lynn cates]

"Glow Mr. Glow worm, glow."

Hello Greg. Thanks.

"The problem with a seeming connection is that it always seems just a little off. He didn't live exactly where we expect Cox or Sagar were surveilling."

Quite. Not to mention he had no glow worm eyes. (heh-heh)

Cheers.
LC

[Digalittledeeperwatson]

Hullo Abby

I'm gonna attempt to say this, hope it comes out comprehensible as I am currently under the weather. Jews, Syphilis, and prob a whole host of other notions are likely just red hearings. But, on the night of the "Double Event", we have a Socialist Club with many Jewish members and a topic of why Jews should be socialists and a murder that occurs basically right there. Another murder near a Synagogue, which is near a Jewish club where the Jewish witnesses possibly see the murderer. A piece of apron from the victim underneath a message pertaining to Jews apparently, at a building inhabited by Jews. Once is an occurence, twice is a coincidence, thrice is a pattern. Not sure what that makes it a pattern of. But def a pattern of something. Exploring the "Jewish" aspect of things is a logical thing to do.

[Paddy]

Joseph and Hyam Levy

Just had a quick glance and found a tree that has Mordicai (isaac) Levy and Sarah his wife and family.
Children stated as Hyam 1810
Esther 1814
Elias 1816
Moss 1818
Joseph 1822
Elizabeth 1826

All born at Aldgate St Botolph Middlesex.
So Joseph Hyam Levy could likely have been Jacobs uncle......
As there are no source records and I have not found any yet, it would have to be verified. But looks highly likely..
Pat...

[Abby Normal]

While this seems quite reasonable Abby the problem is there are no valid suspects....there's a few conflicting and contradictory names thrown about by supposed authorities......there's a few conflicting and contradictory descriptions uttered by unreliable witnesses...............

We've got nothing.......zero.....nada...zilch....again if you want to only allow the word suspect to names mentioned by authorities I suppose you could argue that.........but my view is that the perp or perps are probably none of the above...........there is no solid connection of anyone to the crimes.................therefore deciding who is a suspect versus a person of interest is a zero sum game in my view...


Greg

Hi Greg
I agree that all the suspects are weak, but the best ones out the lot,are at least mentioned by police at the time or have some connection to the crimes.
Kos has a possible ID, and is mentioned by several top police as a suspect.
Druitt, chapman, tumblety, James Kelly are all mentioned by police as suspects or at least persons of interest.
Hutch and even Letch have a connection to the crime scene/victim and also possible red flags about their circumstances.

I know its not much. But it's something.

Not so for Jacob levy. Except that he was a contemperous crazy Jew. I need more than that to label someone a suspect.

And one more log to toss on the fire. Why is everyone looking for crazy Jews? Why not crazy Gentiles? I'll tell you why-because that was Anderson's profile/theory. But according to Anderson himself we already have our crazy Jew so why does the focus on finding a crazy ripper remain a Jew. If you think about it it really shouldn't. Its a red herring.

In all liklihood the ripper has just the same, if not more IMHO chance of being a gentile, so if you think that being crazy is a main criteria, why not look for (do research on) all crazy men at the time and not just single out Jews?

[DVV]

Kosher double event

Waow...
People are worse than Anderson here around.
After Schwartz saving the bacon of a Jewish club member in Berner Street, here is Hyam saving the Ripper's bacon in Mitre Square.

What a double event.