So Cross the Ripper got involved in the investigation. Why did he stop?

[drstrange169]

>>I don't believe Lechmer wanted to get involved with the investigation, but was basically forced into it because of Paul's voluntarily coming forward.<<

We will probably never know, but following the trail of snippets, Xmere may well have gone to the police when he finished work on Friday afternoon.

Newspapers across the country and as far away as Scotland were reporting on Saturday morning stories that two men discovered the body before PC Neil. That's a full 24 hours before Paul's interview hit the newspaper stands. So where were those stories coming from?

Xmere may have gone to the police on Friday afternoon, Bethnal Green J Division being the nearest to his home. Presumably, he would have told the same story as he did at the inquest about the two of them informing a Policeman in Baker's Row near Hanbury Street.

The police would have checked with the J Division PC patrolling that area, in this case, PC Neil. We know Neil was asked about two men and we know he, truthfully, denied it. Therefore, the police would have had good reason to disbelieve Xmere's story.

Once Paul's story came out on Sunday morning Xmere's story could no longer be so easily dismissed. It would have warranted further investigation.
Hence Mizen's hasty identification of Xmere at the inquest.

[Columbo]

Merely on his way to work who stumbled upon a victim.

I have seen nothing to show anything else, the Ripper could have got away as little as 40 seconds before Cross arrived after all that's all there was between Cross and Paul.

I think if Lechmere was the killer it was opportunistic. Nichols just happened to be drunkenly walking through Buck's Row and they met.

Beyond that I agree Lechmere as a suspect is a tough call but I can't discount him because that wouldn't be any fun at all!

The problem with the 40 seconds scenario (I'm using that as an example, not as an exact time or anything like that) also allows for Fisherman's theory to take hold.

Fisherman postulates that based on the blood flow Lechmere was at the body around the time of death. If JTR was interrupted then he almost certainly was in the process of the mutilations when he took off.

So in theory we could put Lechmere in that same scenario as the killer, giving Lechmere that same 40 seconds (just an example) from the time he heard Paul approaching to when Paul reached him.

So that is why we shouldn't out and out discard him as a person of interest. The Lechmere theory does hold some water. How much is up to the individual of course.

Columbo

[Errata]

While there may not be much in the way of evidence,there is a heap of information available.Posters have had plenty of time and sufficient information,in my view,to give an opinion on the followin.
When entering Bucks Row,was Cross merely a workman on his way to work,or a killer searching for a victim? Did he meet Nichols in Bucks Row,gain her confidence,and decide to kill her where she was found.Or was it an unexplained blitz attack on seeing her at that spot.

Weird though that he would kill her right where he would normally be walking to work in a few minutes though, right?

[drstrange169]

The problem with the "blood flow" it's a multiple choice answer.

The killer may have been Lechmere.

The killer may have returned after the two men left to inflict more injuries.

The killer may have been disturbed.

The killer may have already left.

The only record we have of the blood is Neil's description of it "oozing".
What exactly did he mean by that?

"Ooze" conjures up pictures of old blood slowly leaking or perhaps freshly leaking because Neil had just disturbed the body causing blood previously caught in a cavity to seep out.

I've consulted doctors about this and they've all said it's all too vague to pin down from just one word "ooze".

[Columbo]

The problem with the "blood flow" it's a multiple choice answer.

The killer may have been Lechmere.

The killer may have returned after the two men left to inflict more injuries.

The killer may have been disturbed.

The killer may have already left.

The only record we have of the blood is Neil's description of it "oozing".
What exactly did he mean by that?

"Ooze" conjures up pictures of old blood slowly leaking or perhaps freshly leaking because Neil had just disturbed the body causing blood previously caught in a cavity to seep out.

I've consulted doctors about this and they've all said it's all too vague to pin down from just one word "ooze".

All possibilities I agree. And your point on disturbing the wounds to cause more blood to come out is something I haven't seen mentioned. That's food for thought as well.

Interesting the way new details and ideas come out of a constructive conversation

Columbo

[Columbo]

I've always thought that was incredible, Pierre. What with the high-risk environments and the overcrowded living conditions, it's a miracle that no one ever caught a glimpse of the killer leaving the scene of the crimes. I think the closest detection we have is PC Thompson hearing footsteps leaving Swallow Gardens shortly before he found Frances Coles... and she's not even considered a canonical.

Wasn't there also a report of a PC being greeted by a man coming out or around an entrance to Mitre's Square as well?

I think your point also shows just how fast these killings were (not including Mary Kelly) in the fact that he wasn't seen.

I believe a few modern medical experts have said that the wounds to Annie Chapman would only take roughly 3 minutes. One that I saw was on a Tumblety documentary. So if true we could roughly estimate between hooking up, finding a place and the killing it self shouldn't take more than 7-8 minutes max. Eddowes was probably the quickest since she was last seen at an entrance close to Mitre's square. Cutting the face may have added a minute.

Of course we can hypothesis if Lechmere was the killer and came across Nichols in Bucks Row by chance he would only need 4 or 5 minutes since she was already there and he didn't finish the mutilations. That would fit within the 7-8 minute window Fisherman has put forth.

All guess work on times of course but I'm guessing there wasn't alot of conversation with a drunken prostitute and a horn dog customer. They just gave em the "business" and moved on.

Columbo

[Trevor Marriott]

Merely on his way to work who stumbled upon a victim.

I have seen nothing to show anything else, the Ripper could have got away as little as 40 seconds before Cross arrived after all that's all there was between Cross and Paul.

Or the killer could have been long gone, perhaps disturbed by other sounds and noises which threatened his continuation of the crime. or equally he had finished what he set out to do.

Personally I dont think he was disturbed, the killer cut the throat almost to the point of decapitation and had time to inflict abdominal wounds, albeit of a lesser degree than those inflicted on Eddowes and Chapman, and those two murders are the the ones that suggest to me that all three were by the same hand.

https://www.trevormarriott.co.uk

[Trevor Marriott]

Xmere may have gone to the police on Friday afternoon, Bethnal Green J Division being the nearest to his home.

If that had happened one scenario could have been that he would have had his details taken down and would have been told that they would be passed to the officers dealing with the murder, who in turn would have visited him and obtained a statement.

So the confusion over his name could have arisen at that point.

https://www.trevormarriott.co.uk

[Trevor Marriott]

Fisherman postulates that based on the blood flow Lechmere was at the body around the time of death. If JTR was interrupted then he almost certainly was in the process of the mutilations when he took off.

and that is where it falls down because the blood flow evidence he seeks to rely on is in itself unreliable.

https://www.trevormarriott.co.uk

[Harry D]

Wasn't there also a report of a PC being greeted by a man coming out or around an entrance to Mitre's Square as well?

Could be wrong but wasn't that a night watchman? A man passed him by and remarked "Looks like another woman has been killed" or something along those lines? I'll have to check.

[Patrick S]

Could be wrong but wasn't that a night watchman? A man passed him by and remarked "Looks like another woman has been killed" or something along those lines? I'll have to check.

PC Edward Watkins discovered Eddowes', along his beat, which took him through Mitre Square. Watkins then went across the street to Kearley & Tonge Warehouse. He opened the door and asked George Morris, the nightwatchman on duty to come to his assistance. Morris grabbed a lamp and went outside with Watkins. He asked what was the matter. Watkins then told him that another woman had been "cut to pieces".

[Patrick S]

and that is where it falls down because the blood flow evidence he seeks to rely on is in itself unreliable.

www.trevormarriott.co.uk

Blood "evidence" is - in my view - a stretch. Again, it's adjectives attributed by reporters, editors, etc., 130 years ago and cannot be used to try and fix a time of death. Nichols' was likely dead more than a few minutes before Cross and Paul came along and the killer was - as has been said by others - "long gone".

[Harry D]

PC Edward Watkins discovered Eddowes', along his beat, which took him through Mitre Square. Watkins then went across the street to Kearley & Tonge Warehouse. He opened the door and asked George Morris, the nightwatchman on duty to come to his assistance. Morris grabbed a lamp and went outside with Watkins. He asked what was the matter. Watkins then told him that another woman had been "cut to pieces".

Hmmm... Sounds like I'm conflating the two incidents, but there was definitely one witness who claimed that an unidentified man passed him and made a comment about the murder.

[Columbo]

and that is where it falls down because the blood flow evidence he seeks to rely on is in itself unreliable.

www.trevormarriott.co.uk

I don't think it completely knocks the idea of Lechmere being the killer out of the park, since almost all of the medical evidence for most of the victims has been called into question based on methods at the time being archaic compared to what we know today. To me it's a piece of information that is open to much interpretation and probably not as useful for our purposes, but does provide a dim picture of what was discovered by the PC. I also believe the blood evidence can be interpreted in several ways, its up to the individual person to decide which interpretation they believe.

Personally, I think it falls under two interpretations. JTR was disturbed by Lechmere and hid, so the bleeding continued as they looked at the body and found a PC, or Lechmere was disturbed by Paul and pulled down the skirts, and then they went looking for a PC and the bleeding continued. I don't think JTR left much earlier because he was finished and I don't think he ran because he thought his location was too risky. We know that was not his M.O. He killed in a backyard while a guy was taking a leak in the next yard!


Based on the scenario we created here even without the blood evidence it's still theoretically possible that lechmere could've been disturbed by Paul while in the act of killing Nichols. It's just as likely he could've just found a body but my point being is that it's possible.

Columbo

[Columbo]

If that had happened one scenario could have been that he would have had his details taken down and would have been told that they would be passed to the officers dealing with the murder, who in turn would have visited him and obtained a statement.

So the confusion over his name could have arisen at that point.

www.trevormarriott.co.uk

Not to change subjects but I picked up your last book and found it very interesting. I was very intrigued by your examination of the Swanson marginalia and a few other bits of information.

Not that my opinion matters but if others haven't read it, they should.

Columbo